FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Moderator: Field of Glory 2 Tournaments Managers

Post Reply
stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 11881
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:47 pm

I received a message from a player yesterday asking me to investigate whether dkalenda had been regularly re-loading his turns in order to obtain better outcomes in his matches. I spoke to Richard (who is not part of Slitherine) who, in turn, spoke to people at Slitherine who deal with irregularities that occasionally occur on the server. It transpires that Slitherine did suspend dkalenda for a short while this season but re-activated his account when he explained that his internet connection was unreliable. However, I have now been told by Richard that in one particular match dkalenda re-loaded his turns 99 times, including 36 times during just one turn. In other matches against the same opponent this season there were a further 18 and 5 extra re-loads. This cannot be explained away by a poor internet connection.

The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that dkalenda is regularly re-loading his turns in order to gain an unfair advantage. There is another word for this sort of behaviour that I shall refrain from using here. I have discussed the matter with Anders (hidde) and Ian (ianiow) who help me with the adjudications each season and we have agreed the following should happen now (voting 3-0) . . .

1) all dkalenda's matches this season will be awarded to his opponents 4-0 and he will be placed bottom of the table with 0 points. This affects Classical Antiquity Division A, Early Middle Ages Division A and Biblical Division A. As he had completed 3 matches in all three divisions there is no question of getting a reserve in at this very late stage.

2) dkalenda will forfeit the semi-final "mirror match" against paulmcneil in the Themed Event. paulmcneil will play harveylh in the final.

3) dkalenda will be permanently banned from the FOG2DL. There will be no second chance for something as serious as this and many players will not want to play him again in any case. What Slitherine do with regards to wider bans or suspensions is a matter entirely for them.

4) dkalenda will be removed from the FOG2DL ratings, the Medals Table and the FOG2DL Tournament Records.

5) the league tables from previous seasons will remain unchanged and an entry for dkalenda will remain in the overall Player's Records with a note attached explaining what has happened here.

For all the specific details of the matches affected by this decision I would ask you to be patient for a few hours while I update the various result threads, league tables and charts. I will try to get it all done by the end of the day.

I am very disappointed that something like this has happened in what again has been a very exciting tournament. I have always got on very well with dkalenda and he always seemed very enthusiastic about the tournament. But his position as the top player in the FOG2DL is now irrevocably tainted. I am very sorry that players have competed with him honestly only not to have that honesty reciprocated. My thanks to Anders and Ian as always and to Richard and Paulo (at Slitherine) for allowing me to deal with this so quickly.

devoncop
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Posts: 1403
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:46 am

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by devoncop » Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:34 pm

That is one of the most shocking things I have read on this forum.

Words cannot express how pathetic such behaviour is.

Well done Pete for your actions which have my unqualified support.

nyczar
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:04 am

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by nyczar » Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:52 pm

devoncop wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:34 pm
That is one of the most shocking things I have read on this forum.

Words cannot express how pathetic such behaviour is.

Well done Pete for your actions which have my unqualified support.
+1

Its the Digital League Barry Bonds moment.

I've been playing in the DL since FOGII Season One and i am really bothered by this. I feel disappointed and angry. I had liked watching dklanda rise over the seasons...liked playing him.... Letting this game become so important that you cross the line to give yourself an unfair advantage....wow....

SLancaster
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 491
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:42 pm

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by SLancaster » Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:00 pm

Maybe also something to have a look at in the programming. I play Chaos Reborn which is also turn-based. While playing multiplayer occasionally you get a disconnection. But, even then, you just go back in and the game has saved everything up to the point when you crashed. You don't start the turn afresh.

paulmcneil
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 625
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:07 pm
Location: Winchester, UK
Contact:

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by paulmcneil » Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:06 pm

SLancaster wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:00 pm
Maybe also something to have a look at in the programming. I play Chaos Reborn which is also turn-based. While playing multiplayer occasionally you get a disconnection. But, even then, you just go back in and the game has saved everything up to the point when you crashed. You don't start the turn afresh.
good idea if it's technically feasible
Paul McNeil

Ludendorf
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
Posts: 767
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:35 pm

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Ludendorf » Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:38 pm

Grim news indeed. A very disappointing and strange situation. I do also hope there is some kind of technical solution that could prevent this from arising in the future.

paulmcneil
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 625
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:07 pm
Location: Winchester, UK
Contact:

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by paulmcneil » Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:56 pm

Does make me laugh when I look back and read all the entries in the RNG debate that raged, insisting that Dkalenda won so many games because he was the best player, and the RNG had nothing to do with it That looks very funny now. But then again could perhaps explain why some people saw so many bizarre RNG results, and some almost none at all? The RNG was effectively being gamed, constant flicking of the coin to get 6 6s in a row as it were.
Paul McNeil

NikiforosFokas
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 607
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:59 pm
Location: Greece

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by NikiforosFokas » Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:29 pm

I was thinking that Slitherine monitors the many re-loads without someone to ask for this.
Anyway, congrats to Pete really for his actions.
For Byzantium!!

devoncop
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Posts: 1403
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:46 am

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by devoncop » Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:32 pm

paulmcneil wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:56 pm
Does make me laugh when I look back and read all the entries in the RNG debate that raged, insisting that Dkalenda won so many games because he was the best player, and the RNG had nothing to do with it That looks very funny now. But then again could perhaps explain why some people saw so many bizarre RNG results, and some almost none at all? The RNG was effectively being gamed, constant flicking of the coin to get 6 6s in a row as it were.
Unless you are alleging all of the longstanding Divn A players did the same.......(they didn't)..........the general point about the best players still overcoming RNG year after year through skill still applies.

I speak as someone for whom the giddy heights of the top Division exists only as some sort of ancient folklore by the way so I am not speaking through self interest :D

MikeMarchant
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:46 pm

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by MikeMarchant » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:39 pm

Good job, Pete, well done to you, Anders and ian.

Let's hope this never happens again.


Best Wishes

Mike

SLancaster
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 491
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:42 pm

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by SLancaster » Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:05 pm

Someone just told me that they disconnected from 2-3 league games last season and got worried that they may get in trouble. This issue should be looked at with high priority because so much of the game is based on multiplayer and the PBEM. Turns shouldn’t be taken again. If it can’t be changed in this game then sort out the problem for the next games, for sure.

paulmcneil
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 625
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:07 pm
Location: Winchester, UK
Contact:

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by paulmcneil » Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:26 pm

devoncop wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:32 pm
paulmcneil wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:56 pm
Does make me laugh when I look back and read all the entries in the RNG debate that raged, insisting that Dkalenda won so many games because he was the best player, and the RNG had nothing to do with it That looks very funny now. But then again could perhaps explain why some people saw so many bizarre RNG results, and some almost none at all? The RNG was effectively being gamed, constant flicking of the coin to get 6 6s in a row as it were.
Unless you are alleging all of the longstanding Divn A players did the same.......(they didn't)..........the general point about the best players still overcoming RNG year after year through skill still applies.

I speak as someone for whom the giddy heights of the top Division exists only as some sort of ancient folklore by the way so I am not speaking through self interest :D
I don't remember writing that in my statement Officer :D
Paul McNeil

stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 11881
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:37 pm

I think one serious question that we have to ask Slitherine is why dkalenda's account was reactivated after he was suspended for a short time this season. I understand that Slitherine send a warning message when anomalies on the server occur and if there is no reply then the player is banned from multi-player. It seems this time it was enough for dkalenda to say to them that he had a faulty internet connection to get his account reactivated. I have just been told this evening that in another match dkalenda re-loaded 225 times, which dwarfs the previous record of 99 times that I referred to in the first post of this thread. So what checking was done?

I appreciate that staff are not primarily employed to check servers for possible anomalies but these re-loads seem to have been happening on an industrial scale this season (and very probably in previous seasons too) so the checking needs to be more vigorous. And maybe Slitherine need to let tournament organisers know when a player has been suspended by them so we can check if they are playing in a tournament? It cannot be happening very often but when it does it needs to be dealt with quickly.

paulmcneil
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 625
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:07 pm
Location: Winchester, UK
Contact:

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by paulmcneil » Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:53 pm

stockwellpete wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:37 pm
I think one serious question that we have to ask Slitherine is why dkalenda's account was reactivated after he was suspended for a short time this season. I understand that Slitherine send a warning message when anomalies on the server occur and if there is no reply then the player is banned from multi-player. It seems this time it was enough for dkalenda to say to them that he had a faulty internet connection to get his account reactivated. I have just been told this evening that in another match dkalenda re-loaded 225 times, which dwarfs the previous record of 99 times that I referred to in the first post of this thread. So what checking was done?

I appreciate that staff are not primarily employed to check servers for possible anomalies but these re-loads seem to have been happening on an industrial scale this season (and very probably in previous seasons too) so the checking needs to be more vigorous. And maybe Slitherine need to let tournament organisers know when a player has been suspended by them so we can check if they are playing in a tournament? It cannot be happening very often but when it does it needs to be dealt with quickly.
Sounds like a good plan Pete
Paul McNeil

Schweetness101
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
Posts: 778
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:12 am

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Schweetness101 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:58 pm

stockwellpete wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:37 pm
...in another match dkalenda re-loaded 225 times, which dwarfs the previous record of 99 times...
lol did he sit there for like 4 hours reloading turns over the course of a single match? That seems like borderline mental illness territory.

Is he banned by the forum as well? It would be interesting to see him comment on this, just out of curiosity.

rbodleyscott
Field of Glory 2
Field of Glory 2
Posts: 24145
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by rbodleyscott » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:07 pm

stockwellpete wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:37 pm
I think one serious question that we have to ask Slitherine is why dkalenda's account was reactivated after he was suspended for a short time this season. I understand that Slitherine send a warning message when anomalies on the server occur and if there is no reply then the player is banned from multi-player. It seems this time it was enough for dkalenda to say to them that he had a faulty internet connection to get his account reactivated. I have just been told this evening that in another match dkalenda re-loaded 225 times, which dwarfs the previous record of 99 times that I referred to in the first post of this thread. So what checking was done?

I appreciate that staff are not primarily employed to check servers for possible anomalies but these re-loads seem to have been happening on an industrial scale this season (and very probably in previous seasons too) so the checking needs to be more vigorous. And maybe Slitherine need to let tournament organisers know when a player has been suspended by them so we can check if they are playing in a tournament? It cannot be happening very often but when it does it needs to be dealt with quickly.
If you want Slitherine to make changes in their protocols, you should contact them directly - it is quite likely that no-one from Slitherine will see this thread.
Richard Bodley Scott

Image

SLancaster
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 491
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:42 pm

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by SLancaster » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:26 pm

I am not an expert but when it says that dkalenda reloaded 225 times in one match (in one turn?) I begin to suspect some kind of error. Like when your screen freezes when you are on the forum and multiple posts get downloaded. Some kind of disconnection and the router shooting off millions of requests.

As I said, a thorough investigation is needed by people with more knowledge than us!

harveylh
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 439
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:32 pm

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by harveylh » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:28 pm

This is a very sad situation. I have thought there was something different about games with dkalenda from the beginning (Season 2, my first season), but I thought he understood charges, pursuits and evades much better than anyone else I have ever played. And as we like to say good players make their own luck. I did not know that would end up being literally true. :( However it was nearly every game he had better than average luck. I am now surprised I actually beat him a few times, but in those games the better than average luck in my critical turns was apparently better than the manufactured luck in his turn.

This also explains why dkalenda would often take six, seven, even eight days to respond to a turn in my games with him (and I never claimed a game from him under the seven day rule though I regret it now). It takes time to run dozens (hundreds?) of restarts to get the spectacular luck he always seemed to receive when he needed it.

The few games I won were always very close and he always beat me in games that determined the division champion of which there were several. I now believe dkalenda was an average player who was willing to cheat to become an elite player. I am frustrated and angry by this. I am are sure other players feel the same way.

A future concern is considering dkalenda re-loaded his turns multiple times during multiple matches and Slitherine did not notify Pete or RBS. Also Slitherine suspended and then re-activated his account apparently without notifying Pete or RBS. I appreciate Slitherine has other and from their perspective more important things to worry about, but as already suggested a software fix that would not allow a restart without saving everything up to the point when you restart would be very helpful. So as RBS suggested, we need to lobby Slitherine for changes.

Harvey

Schweetness101
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
Posts: 778
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:12 am

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Schweetness101 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:02 pm

SLancaster wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:26 pm
I am not an expert but when it says that dkalenda reloaded 225 times in one match (in one turn?) I begin to suspect some kind of error.
yeah 225 doesn't seem plausible, maybe it freaked out like you said and did like 15 of them each time he crashed the game or something

then again:
harveylh wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:28 pm

This also explains why dkalenda would often take six, seven, even eight days to respond to a turn in my games with him (and I never claimed a game from him under the seven day rule though I regret it now). It takes time to run dozens (hundreds?) of restarts to get the spectacular luck he always seemed to receive when he needed it.
so maybe he really was manually re-running it that many times

MikeC_81
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 935
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:28 am

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by MikeC_81 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:24 am

paulmcneil wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:56 pm
Does make me laugh when I look back and read all the entries in the RNG debate that raged, insisting that Dkalenda won so many games because he was the best player, and the RNG had nothing to do with it That looks very funny now. But then again could perhaps explain why some people saw so many bizarre RNG results, and some almost none at all? The RNG was effectively being gamed, constant flicking of the coin to get 6 6s in a row as it were.
The RNG system is fine and has been tested to be fine on multiple occasions. I have always suspected though that given the rather lax protection in Slitherine's system that some cheating was going on and it probably still does go on. But for a reload to have occurred 99 times before Slitherine put a hit on the account is unacceptable. No one could possibly swallow the lie about an unreliable internet connection. Even 5 extra reloads in a single game should be a serious sign of trouble and this is coming from someone who has at multiple times switched service providers to deal with poor performance.

Slitherine needs to publish to the best of their ability dkalenda's load/save ratio. This would absolutely explain why people got such absurd RNG results.
rbodleyscott wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:07 pm
If you want Slitherine to make changes in their protocols, you should contact them directly - it is quite likely that no-one from Slitherine will see this thread.
Who and where do I start sending emails to.
SLancaster wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:05 pm
Someone just told me that they disconnected from 2-3 league games last season and got worried that they may get in trouble. This issue should be looked at with high priority because so much of the game is based on multiplayer and the PBEM. Turns shouldn’t be taken again. If it can’t be changed in this game then sort out the problem for the next games, for sure.
The way I have understood Slitherine's PBEM system, I have always known that it would be possible to save scum with little to no retaliation as long as one was judicial about using it (a key point of attack etc, etc) since an automated system must be programmed in with a fair degree of offsets to prevent a flood of false positives. But to find out that a match was reloaded 99 and 225 times. It begs the question of what if any automated safeguards are in place? And if there an automated safeguard system which spits out a report, how often does Sliterthine staff check it? Quite honestly it is absurd.

I guess I have been fortunate enough to not have played with many cheaters as there have only been a few instances where I raised my eyebrows where successful rolls were going exactly where they needed to be.
Last edited by MikeC_81 on Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Stratford Scramble Tournament

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=494&t=99766&p=861093#p861093

FoG 2 Post Game Analysis Series on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKmEROEwX2fgjoQLlQULhPg/

Post Reply

Return to “Field of Glory II Digital League”