FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Moderator: Field of Glory 2 Tournaments Managers

MikeC_81
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 935
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:28 am

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by MikeC_81 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:10 pm

It is unfortunate that you have lost faith devoncop. I totally agree that it doesn't feel good right now. The thing is I have always stated that Sitherine doesn't need to do anything more than provide transparency and let the player base sort this issue out ourselves.

I personally believe most people are reasonable and will not be obtuse over the occasional reload. Information allows us to track when it is happening and how often and relieves Slitherine of the burden of tracking and trying to to be fair while retaining their customer, a fundamental conflict of interest.

It has been a working week now with no updates.
Stratford Scramble Tournament

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=494&t=99766&p=861093#p861093

FoG 2 Post Game Analysis Series on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKmEROEwX2fgjoQLlQULhPg/

Najanaja
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:35 am
Location: Australia

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Najanaja » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:53 pm

pantherboy wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:55 am
There is no adjudication by yourself Pete. Regardless of the reason for a download it gives that player an advantage which the game was not designed with the intention of. It would be like a player of a miniatures game redoing a move or turn. It is strictly forbidden unless your opponent says it is okay. As such if you require a redownload then you have effectively forfeited the match unless your opponent is willing to give you grace with the expectation that in competition no such grace is required or expected. So critical juncture would be defined as the person deciding if something was fishy or not regarding an opponents redownload. They require no proof nor justification but simply to make the choice that assuages their conscience. I suspect that such a move will cripple cheating and also avoid the blame game especially if everyone agrees to abide by such stipulations prior to the tournament. If by chance you live somewhere that has a spotty connection or own a PC that is prone to crashing then you probably should be relegating your matches to friendly ones only as such problems are not an acceptable excuse for redownloading during a tournament without receiving an unfair advantage.
I think this is a bit extreme. I occasionally am not able to upload a turn. Mostly this seems to be a server problem and seems to happen in the early hours of the morning UTC. The approach I take is to inform my opponent of the reload and try to make the same moves in the repeated turn. I know other players do this too because they tell me so.

We are all just playing games here....

Najanaja
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:35 am
Location: Australia

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Najanaja » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:59 pm

There seems to be an assumption in these discussions that a replayed turn is always advantageous to the player making it. This is obviously not the case, the vagaries of the dice are just as likely to produce a worse combat result second time round.

It is also possible that a turn that must be reloaded is at the manoeuvre stage of the game where no RNG is involved.

Overall, I think the effect on the game of a single replayed turn is being over-stated here and is in no way comparable to what the offender did.

Karvon
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 429
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:36 pm
Location: Osaka, Japan

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Karvon » Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:08 am

As a person who's got crappy internet atm, fixing it being complicated by the fact I'm living with the inlaws, I think I've had to reload half a dozen times or so in the past year of playing - that includes both friendly and tournament play. It's never happened more than once a game that I can recall. I always explained the situation to my opponent and never had anyone give me any grief about it so far. I don't remember it ever giving me an advantage, usually replaying out about the same, though once I did get screwed in a replay rather badly resulting in a chain rout.

I've had opponents reload a hand full of times in the same span, but never more than once a game, and in each case, they shared, what I considered, a reasonable explanation and apology. I've never had any ill feelings about it.

I wouldn't join a tourney where a reload would mean an automatic loss as I feel that's too extreme a penalty for a rare but unpreventable occurrence.

I think there should be some threshold, which Slitherine could determine based on their historical analysis of server data, that, if crossed, should autogenerate a log report of the game at its close and send it to the players. If one felt aggrieved, they could take it up with their opponent, tourney organizer and/or Slitherine. I think players who get flagged more than a handful of times should be banned from MP for a period of time. Repeat offenders facing longer, and possibly permanent ban.

MikeC_81
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 935
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:28 am

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by MikeC_81 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:29 am

Karvon wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:08 am
As a person who's got crappy internet atm, fixing it being complicated by the fact I'm living with the inlaws, I think I've had to reload half a dozen times or so in the past year of playing - that includes both friendly and tournament play. It's never happened more than once a game that I can recall. I always explained the situation to my opponent and never had anyone give me any grief about it so far.
Surely though given that you were more than open in explaining when it happened, you wouldn't object to Slitherine just telling players by default when reloads have occurred and how many right? That is literally what I am asking for. Many players support my proposal of transparency. Even Pete is onboard with some type of report auto-generated each game.

@Slitherine - Give us the data. Stop hiding it. Let us be adults and deal with it because you guys have admitted that you don't have the manpower. Each tournament manager can have their own rules and thresholds and everyone is free to join the tournaments with the thresholds they feel comfortable with.
Stratford Scramble Tournament

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=494&t=99766&p=861093#p861093

FoG 2 Post Game Analysis Series on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKmEROEwX2fgjoQLlQULhPg/

Karvon
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 429
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:36 pm
Location: Osaka, Japan

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Karvon » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:42 am

MikeC_81 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:29 am
Karvon wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:08 am
As a person who's got crappy internet atm, fixing it being complicated by the fact I'm living with the inlaws, I think I've had to reload half a dozen times or so in the past year of playing - that includes both friendly and tournament play. It's never happened more than once a game that I can recall. I always explained the situation to my opponent and never had anyone give me any grief about it so far.
Surely though given that you were more than open in explaining when it happened, you wouldn't object to Slitherine just telling players by default when reloads have occurred and how many right? That is literally what I am asking for. Many players support my proposal of transparency. Even Pete is onboard with some type of report auto-generated each game.

@Slitherine - Give us the data. Stop hiding it. Let us be adults and deal with it because you guys have admitted that you don't have the manpower. Each tournament manager can have their own rules and thresholds and everyone is free to join the tournaments with the thresholds they feel comfortable with.
I have no problem with that concept, though I think it would be better to include the log in the server email when the game is over.

Cunningcairn
Colonel - Ju 88A
Colonel - Ju 88A
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:05 am
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:35 am

devoncop wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:03 pm
Indeed though the words were written by Voltaire and put into the mouth of his heroine so I will maintain he deserves the credit 😉

On a serious note I have had to forfeit my last round of matches in the 20th Anniversary tournament (where I was in a personal best position after the second round) because I have lost faith in the integrity of competitive games for now so I really do hope this matter gets properly addressed.
I think you are incorrect. I have also experienced results that can only be described as cheating but they cannot be as they occur in my turn. The game regularly gives extreme results and always has. No matter what is done to stop cheating by reload every time someone has a reload their opponent will assume the worst due to the frequency of extreme events.

paulmcneil
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 625
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:07 pm
Location: Winchester, UK
Contact:

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by paulmcneil » Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:43 am

MikeC_81 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:29 am
Karvon wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:08 am
As a person who's got crappy internet atm, fixing it being complicated by the fact I'm living with the inlaws, I think I've had to reload half a dozen times or so in the past year of playing - that includes both friendly and tournament play. It's never happened more than once a game that I can recall. I always explained the situation to my opponent and never had anyone give me any grief about it so far.
Surely though given that you were more than open in explaining when it happened, you wouldn't object to Slitherine just telling players by default when reloads have occurred and how many right? That is literally what I am asking for. Many players support my proposal of transparency. Even Pete is onboard with some type of report auto-generated each game.

@Slitherine - Give us the data. Stop hiding it. Let us be adults and deal with it because you guys have admitted that you don't have the manpower. Each tournament manager can have their own rules and thresholds and everyone is free to join the tournaments with the thresholds they feel comfortable with.
I hate to say it, but I completely agree with MikeC on this
Paul McNeil

stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 11884
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:25 am

MikeC_81 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:10 pm
I personally believe most people are reasonable and will not be obtuse over the occasional reload.
Yes, most people will be OK, but not all people. That is the point. As an organiser I always ask myself, "What are the likely worst case scenarios if I do this?"

stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 11884
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:36 am

Karvon wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:08 am
I wouldn't join a tourney where a reload would mean an automatic loss as I feel that's too extreme a penalty for a rare but unpreventable occurrence.
I wouldn't run a tournament on that basis either. :wink:
I think there should be some threshold, which Slitherine could determine based on their historical analysis of server data, that, if crossed, should autogenerate a log report of the game at its close and send it to the players. If one felt aggrieved, they could take it up with their opponent, tourney organizer and/or Slitherine. I think players who get flagged more than a handful of times should be banned from MP for a period of time. Repeat offenders facing longer, and possibly permanent ban.
Yes, this method makes the most sense to me. In the new system a record must be kept by Slitherine when a player receives a warning so that a second occurrence can be dealt with more robustly, if appropriate. In terms of the threshold that would generate a report at the end of a game then certainly 3 excess downloads in a game should be enough. If the system could discount excess downloads in the first 4 or 5 turns of a game (the manoeuvre stage) then I would set the threshold at 2 excess downloads. That way completely honest players would not be flagged for the occasional single internet or server glitch.

devoncop
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Posts: 1403
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:46 am

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by devoncop » Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:10 am

stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:36 am
Karvon wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:08 am
I wouldn't join a tourney where a reload would mean an automatic loss as I feel that's too extreme a penalty for a rare but unpreventable occurrence.
I wouldn't run a tournament on that basis either. :wink:
I think there should be some threshold, which Slitherine could determine based on their historical analysis of server data, that, if crossed, should autogenerate a log report of the game at its close and send it to the players. If one felt aggrieved, they could take it up with their opponent, tourney organizer and/or Slitherine. I think players who get flagged more than a handful of times should be banned from MP for a period of time. Repeat offenders facing longer, and possibly permanent ban.
Yes, this method makes the most sense to me. In the new system a record must be kept by Slitherine when a player receives a warning so that a second occurrence can be dealt with more robustly, if appropriate. In terms of the threshold that would generate a report at the end of a game then certainly 3 excess downloads in a game should be enough. If the system could discount excess downloads in the first 4 or 5 turns of a game (the manoeuvre stage) then I would set the threshold at 2 excess downloads. That way completely honest players would not be flagged for the occasional single internet or server glitch.
Sorry but why on earth are we contemplating "a warning so that a second instance can be dealt with more robustly" ? :roll:

If a player has been warned by Slitherine then given how high they are setting the bar then cheating has been conclusively discovered.

That should end their participation in MP games full stop.

At the very least anyone playing someone who had been warned should be made aware so they can choose whether to play them.

stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 11884
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:58 am

devoncop wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:10 am
Sorry but why on earth are we contemplating "a warning so that a second instance can be dealt with more robustly" ? :roll:
This is where you are becoming a fanatic. :roll:

Anyone who triggers the system, for whatever reason, should get a "warning PM" asking for an explanation. Some of those explanations will include such things as "my internet was playing up" or "there was a thunderstorm" (hopefully Slitherine will not send these PM's if it is their own server on the blink). When the pattern of excess downloads is reviewed some of these explanations will get a "pass", others may not. But they should all remain on record. If it happens on a second occasion with the same player in the same way, then I would want to refer it all to our FOG2DL adjudication panel - and one possible outcome of that could be that the player is asked to leave the tournament.
If a player has been warned by Slitherine then given how high they are setting the bar then cheating has been conclusively discovered.
No, it hasn't. A player posting 4 excess downloads across turns 2 and 3 is almost certainly not cheating. See my example a few pages where even MikeC_81 agreed with me.
That should end their participation in MP games full stop.

At the very least anyone playing someone who had been warned should be made aware so they can choose whether to play them.
Make your mind up. Are they banned or not in your "brave new world"? I strongly suggest that you do not enter Season 9 unless you are fully committed to completing your matches. It is not fair on the other players.

MikeMarchant
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
1st Lieutenant - Grenadier
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:46 pm

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by MikeMarchant » Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:09 am

pantherboy wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:12 pm
I see your point Mike but not sure if your analogy exactly fits as in said case both players are observers of the actual event so neither would be penalized and I am sure they could amicably come to a decision if reasonably minded.

As I said there is no assumption of guilt but under the current conditions there is no way to verify what happened. Only the player that may have legitimately reloaded due to something out of their control will know the true reason for it. If the reload is for nefarious reasons then more than likely the player was dissatisfied with the turns outcome due to instances of leader loss, double cohesion drops etc. so they decided to reload hoping for a better outcome. Since the player is reloading due to a turn of perceived bad RNG results then probability would dictate that the second attempt would be less likely to have the same or worse outcomes. Also redoing a turn would give a clearer picture of what could happen maybe allowing for more nuanced moves with anticipation of potentially bad outcomes or good that they didn't foresee on the first run through.

As far as penalizing someone for something beyond their control I completely agree that it is not fair. Unfortunately in such a case you are penalizing the opponent who did not reload their turn as much as you would be the player who had a legitimate reason. With 100% certainty we know the opponent did nothing irregular (unless they could remotely hack their opponents game and crash it as they were doing their turn) but we do not have an equal degree of certainty for the person reloading. Since the opponent has the option of not claiming the game it will come down to trust and consideration of the events in game by the only players baring witness to them rather than from any external source. I can only speak for myself but I would never claim a game if it occurred once while playing a battle. When you get to multiple attempts (maybe due to atmospheric conditions hampering connection) then I would think logically that player should stop playing and wait to another day when the signal is better to upload their turn. Now as colorful as your blackboard example is I don't really see how it pertains to this situation though I do understand the intent and agree with the underlying principle.

All in all I believe there is no right answer and Slitherine should be accorded the respect to come up with a strategy that matches their needs and resources. Slitherine simply wants to put quality games on the market that cover both niche and broad appeal. As a business they have to take into regard the current economic downturn and the threat posed by the current pandemic as well as juggle player satisfaction versus reasonably costed solutions. Such factors remove the clarity on this issue that we may feel we have. Unless made privy to factors such as marketing, manpower, budget, programming, sales, active player numbers etc. then none of us can do anymore than make proposals which may prove valuable to Slitherine's analysis. So from this point of view a robust debate devoid of accusations or insults serves Slitherine's and our needs best while fostering a stronger bond within the community. That last reference is not directed at Mike but at the overall tone of this thread with no particular individuals in mind.
Yes, this is the crux of the matter, as you rightly say, Pantherboy: There is no way to know. Of the four parties involved in any incident (the reloading player, his/her opponent, the wider community and Slitherine) only the reloading player knows. Everyone else has to guess. But on what basis do we make that guess? We can take a cynical view and assume everyone's cheating when they reload, or an extremely tolerant view and assume everyone's suffered an unfortunate accident when they reload. The truth lies somewhere inbetween, but it is very hard to establish were.

I can't help thinking that if a player is cheating there will be a pattern of cheating behaviour. So perhaps looking at individual incidents isn't very informative, perhaps we need to be looking at patterns of incidents. I can't be any more helpful than that, unfortunately. I don't know what such a pattern would loook like, but perhaps Slitherine can work on identifying that.

I think Slitherine's task, like Pete's, and like the rest of us in the community, is a very difficult one. Whatever system we adopt, it seems to me to be inevitable that some cheats will go unnoticed and some innocent people will be accused of cheating. So where do we draw that line between the two? Wherever we draw it there will be a section of the community uncomfortbale with it.

I am not unhapppy with the idea of players reporting reloads and having a discussion with their opponent to decide whether the game should be forfeit, except for one flaw: The nice guys are not going to demand a forfeit. The not-nice guys will demand a forfeit. And so the not-nice guys will prosper over the nice guys. We already suffer from this to a small extent with request to restart on the basis of terrain.

For my part, in all the time I have been playing FoG 2 I have never had to relaod a turn. But when I was playing FoG 1 some years ago, I did so many times because my computer kept crashing. Once I had bought a new computer the problem never recurred.

Whatever the outcome of this, we're going to have to work with whatever solution Slitherine/Pete/the Community finally come up with, and then move on. That will inevitably mean many of us being willing to compromise and willing to trust each other. Since Voltaire's been quoted recently, to paraphrase Dr Pangloss, we won't achieve perfection, but perhaps we can achieve the best of all possible worlds.

I have not lost trust in any player since this problem occurred and nor will I do so without concrete evidence to the contrary.


Best Wishes

Mike

stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 11884
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:11 am

MikeC_81 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:29 am
@Slitherine - Give us the data. Stop hiding it. Let us be adults and deal with it because you guys have admitted that you don't have the manpower. Each tournament manager can have their own rules and thresholds and everyone is free to join the tournaments with the thresholds they feel comfortable with.

Uncalled for. There is no "hiding" go on. Slitherine are currently doing a full data review (around 2,500 games each month). There is a meeting today, Iain has told me, and certain technical improvements have already been identified for the future. I think nearly all of us will find this acceptable.

devoncop
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Posts: 1403
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:46 am

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by devoncop » Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:45 am

I am talking about an instance where (like dkalenda) cheating has been established and a player is given a warning and allowed to continue playing MP (like dkalenda was).

Sorry, something has gone wrong here. Somehow my post has got mixed up with devoncop's and wanting to reply to only part of it I have inadvertently deleted the other part. :oops: (Perhaps I hit the wrong button? Or I am cheating therefore I must be expelled! :P )

stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 11884
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:18 am

devoncop wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:45 am
I am talking about an instance where (like dkalenda) cheating has been established and a player is given a warning and allowed to continue playing MP (like dkalenda was).
The trouble is it was not established that dkalenda was cheating. The system flagged him, he was sent a PM by Slitherine and replied that he had internet problems. Then he was re-instated. There was no investigation at that time to establish the number of excess downloads that he was responsible for.

Then, as soon as I received a PM from a player who had been told by dkalenda himself that he had been re-loading, I PM'd all of dkalenda's remaining opponents asking them to pause their matches. dkalenda was then suspended pending further enquiries (with Richard) and immediately it was shown beyond reasonable doubt that he had been cheating he was expelled unanimously by the adjudication panel. By then we had the number of excess downloads and the pattern of their occurrence.

So the current system the FOG2DL operates immediately expels players for cheating, so any suggestion that we are somehow "soft" on it is totally misplaced. But what I am not going to do is tamely acquiesce to a system where innocent players are sometimes erroneously stigmatised for cheating. If we end up with a system like that then someone else will have to run the FOG2DL.

Cunningcairn
Colonel - Ju 88A
Colonel - Ju 88A
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:05 am
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:19 am

devoncop wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:45 am
I am talking about an instance where (like dkalenda) cheating has been established and a player is given a warning and allowed to continue playing MP (like dkalenda was).

Sorry, something has gone wrong here. Somehow my post has got mixed up with devoncop's and wanting to reply to only part of it I have inadvertently deleted the other part. :oops: (Perhaps I hit the wrong button? Or I am cheating therefore I must be expelled! :P )
But you are Devoncop according to the post?

stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 11884
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:23 am

Cunningcairn wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:19 am
devoncop wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:45 am
I am talking about an instance where (like dkalenda) cheating has been established and a player is given a warning and allowed to continue playing MP (like dkalenda was).

Sorry, something has gone wrong here. Somehow my post has got mixed up with devoncop's and wanting to reply to only part of it I have inadvertently deleted the other part. :oops: (Perhaps I hit the wrong button? Or I am cheating therefore I must be expelled! :P )
But you are Devoncop according to the post?
Not me guv. :D I think I must have pressed "Edit" instead of "Quote" because I have deleted some text of devoncop that I wasn't replying to. I have sent him a PM and I wait to see if he accepts my apology. :wink:

Cunningcairn
Colonel - Ju 88A
Colonel - Ju 88A
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:05 am
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:29 am

stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:23 am
Cunningcairn wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:19 am
devoncop wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:45 am
I am talking about an instance where (like dkalenda) cheating has been established and a player is given a warning and allowed to continue playing MP (like dkalenda was).

Sorry, something has gone wrong here. Somehow my post has got mixed up with devoncop's and wanting to reply to only part of it I have inadvertently deleted the other part. :oops: (Perhaps I hit the wrong button? Or I am cheating therefore I must be expelled! :P )
But you are Devoncop according to the post?
Not me guv. :D I think I must have pressed "Edit" instead of "Quote" because I have deleted some text of devoncop that I wasn't replying to. I have sent him a PM and I wait to see if he accepts my apology. :wink:
LOL! Keep up the good work!

paulmcneil
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 625
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:07 pm
Location: Winchester, UK
Contact:

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by paulmcneil » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:42 am

stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:18 am
devoncop wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:45 am
I am talking about an instance where (like dkalenda) cheating has been established and a player is given a warning and allowed to continue playing MP (like dkalenda was).
The trouble is it was not established that dkalenda was cheating. The system flagged him, he was sent a PM by Slitherine and replied that he had internet problems. Then he was re-instated. There was no investigation at that time to establish the number of excess downloads that he was responsible for.

Then, as soon as I received a PM from a player who had been told by dkalenda himself that he had been re-loading, I PM'd all of dkalenda's remaining opponents asking them to pause their matches. dkalenda was then suspended pending further enquiries (with Richard) and immediately it was shown beyond reasonable doubt that he had been cheating he was expelled unanimously by the adjudication panel. By then we had the number of excess downloads and the pattern of their occurrence.

So the current system the FOG2DL operates immediately expels players for cheating, so any suggestion that we are somehow "soft" on it is totally misplaced. But what I am not going to do is tamely acquiesce to a system where innocent players are sometimes erroneously stigmatised for cheating. If we end up with a system like that then someone else will have to run the FOG2DL.
I think ultimately none of the detail really matters, confidence in the game has been rocked by Dkalenda's activity. Confidence needs to be restored, transparency will go a long way to doing that, and any decision by you Pete as the "Manager of the DL Franchise" should be accepted by all players, or they shouldn't join the DL. In the same way that I maintain social distance and wear a mask in shops, even though I believe these measures are largely pointless, but I follow them as I'm a great believer in social cohesion, so I do it for the "greater good", so, I'm happy to be penalised for ANY restart whether it gives me an advantage or not, if "them's the rules". What I can't live with is a soft system that erodes my confidence in a fair playing field within the DL. Please be more Dictatorial Pete, I'm happy to be "stopped and searched" as many times as you like in a game. Devoncop can probably lend you his truncheon if you ask him nicely.
Paul McNeil

Post Reply

Return to “Field of Glory II Digital League”