FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Moderator: Field of Glory 2 Tournaments Managers

stockwellpete
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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:50 am

Cunningcairn wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:29 am
LOL! Keep up the good work!
They found me wandering up the high street in my slippers and dressing gown yesterday! :lol:

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:52 am

stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:50 am
Cunningcairn wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:29 am
LOL! Keep up the good work!
They found me wandering up the high street in my slippers and dressing gown yesterday! :lol:
Ha, ha no problem as long as you were wearing a mask :-)

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:58 am

paulmcneil wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:42 am
I think ultimately none of the detail really matters, confidence in the game has been rocked by Dkalenda's activity. Confidence needs to be restored, transparency will go a long way to doing that, and any decision by you Pete as the "Manager of the DL Franchise" should be accepted by all players, or they shouldn't join the DL. In the same way that I maintain social distance and wear a mask in shops, even though I believe these measures are largely pointless, but I follow them as I'm a great believer in social cohesion, so I do it for the "greater good", so, I'm happy to be penalised for ANY restart whether it gives me an advantage or not, if "them's the rules". What I can't live with is a soft system that erodes my confidence in a fair playing field within the DL. Please be more Dictatorial Pete, I'm happy to be "stopped and searched" as many times as you like in a game. Devoncop can probably lend you his truncheon if you ask him nicely.
I don't think I can be more dictatorial than expelling someone from the tournament within 24 hours. But I shall not be going down the "Duterte" route - a modern variant of the medieval "kill them all and let God sort them out". I am fairly confident that Slitherine will come up with a system that offers safeguards to the honest player. :wink:

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:58 am

Cunningcairn wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:52 am
Ha, ha no problem as long as you were wearing a mask :-)
I was, but not in the right place! :lol:

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:01 am

stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:58 am
Cunningcairn wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:52 am
Ha, ha no problem as long as you were wearing a mask :-)
I was, but not in the right place! :lol:
I won't ask :lol: You are going to get me into trouble again for going off topic :)

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by devoncop » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:12 am

stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:23 am
Cunningcairn wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:19 am
devoncop wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:45 am
I am talking about an instance where (like dkalenda) cheating has been established and a player is given a warning and allowed to continue playing MP (like dkalenda was).

Sorry, something has gone wrong here. Somehow my post has got mixed up with devoncop's and wanting to reply to only part of it I have inadvertently deleted the other part. :oops: (Perhaps I hit the wrong button? Or I am cheating therefore I must be expelled! :P )
But you are Devoncop according to the post?
Not me guv. :D I think I must have pressed "Edit" instead of "Quote" because I have deleted some text of devoncop that I wasn't replying to. I have sent him a PM and I wait to see if he accepts my apology. :wink:

Being of a distinctly non fanatical nature your apology is of course accepted :wink:

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by MikeC_81 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:43 pm

stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:11 am
MikeC_81 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:29 am
@Slitherine - Give us the data. Stop hiding it. Let us be adults and deal with it because you guys have admitted that you don't have the manpower. Each tournament manager can have their own rules and thresholds and everyone is free to join the tournaments with the thresholds they feel comfortable with.

Uncalled for. There is no "hiding" go on. Slitherine are currently doing a full data review (around 2,500 games each month). There is a meeting today, Iain has told me, and certain technical improvements have already been identified for the future. I think nearly all of us will find this acceptable.
How is it uncalled for? It is a fact. They say they have the reload data. It is not being shown to the players. By definition it is hidden.
stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:25 am
MikeC_81 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:10 pm
I personally believe most people are reasonable and will not be obtuse over the occasional reload.
Yes, most people will be OK, but not all people. That is the point. As an organiser I always ask myself, "What are the likely worst case scenarios if I do this?"
Yes, and those people are free to not play in the DL or any other tournament where the organiser doesn't have a 0 tolerance policy. If no one is offering it, they can run their own tournament.

Quite frankly, while you run the biggest tournament in town, you aren't the MP community. Your personal concerns are subsidiary. We have smaller side tournaments and friendlies as well as Slitherine's own official tournaments. Why hide this information under any circumstances? A player with a self-professed bad connection says he reloaded 6 times in an entire year! I have had a bad connection for almost that long and I reloaded twice.

A large number of us don't trust Slitherine anymore to do the job properly. Now we know that a player has PM'd concerns about reloading about Dkalenda in previous seasons and the verdict was always 'insufficient proof'. Not a slam dunk 'no he did not reload at all'. Most of us here support releasing the data. Let us do with it as we wish. You are free to deal with players as you wish in the DL including eliminating those players who cause an excessive fuss in your opinion. I would be free to deal with players as I wish in tournaments I run. Without the data in the player's hands, this will continue to hang over the game.
Stratford Scramble Tournament

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=494&t=99766&p=861093#p861093

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:05 pm

MikeC_81 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:43 pm
How is it uncalled for? It is a fact. They say they have the reload data. It is not being shown to the players. By definition it is hidden.
I know something that you don't, but it is not for me to divulge what I know on here. If Slitherine wishes to release detailed information, some of which may be deemed commercially sensitive, then that is a decision they have to make, not me. But your accusation, and the general tone of your comments towards Slitherine on here, suggest that you think they are not being honest with us and that their standards are poor. I do not share that view and I know they are using these unfortunate set of circumstances to offer us something better in the future. Some of us do not mind being patient and we would prefer that they conduct a thorough, rather than a rushed, review.
Yes, and those people are free to not play in the DL or any other tournament where the organiser doesn't have a 0 tolerance policy. If no one is offering it, they can run their own tournament.
The FOG2DL does have a zero tolerance policy on cheating. If a player is proved to be cheating then they are gone. Within 24 hours. We have just demonstrated that with dkalenda without any assistance from you.
Quite frankly, while you run the biggest tournament in town, you aren't the MP community. Your personal concerns are subsidiary.
Quite frankly, you are in my (FOG2DL) house. I have never claimed to be the MP community, or even one of its representatives. My concerns are no more, or no less important than yours, or anybody else.
We have smaller side tournaments and friendlies as well as Slitherine's own official tournaments. Why hide this information under any circumstances? A player with a self-professed bad connection says he reloaded 6 times in an entire year! I have had a bad connection for almost that long and I reloaded twice.
Commercial confidentiality, perhaps? Is there anyone who has played for a while who has not had to re-load a turn every once in a while?
A large number of us don't trust Slitherine anymore to do the job properly.
A large number? I doubt it. But whatever, stop using this space in the FOG2DL forum to attack Slitherine and indirectly the FOG2DL. You are hardly a regular in the tournament so take your concerns to the main forum or communicate directly with Slitherine in future. The FOG2DL has been built up by the community over the last 3 years and you are tarnishing it by suggesting that cheating is a major problem. It isn't.

How do I know it isn't? Firstly, most players in the tournament actually remain at more or less the same level, or they move up gradually over a number of seasons. There are very few "shooting stars" like dkalenda. Secondly, I know lots of the players, I have played with them for years and I don't think any of them are cheating. And thirdly, I have very few complaints or accusations about other players at all. We had the "Bog-Ends" fiasco in Season 1 and we have had concerns about dkalenda for a few seasons now. That is all I can remember.
Now we know that a player has PM'd concerns about reloading about Dkalenda in previous seasons and the verdict was always 'insufficient proof'. Not a slam dunk 'no he did not reload at all'. Most of us here support releasing the data. Let us do with it as we wish. You are free to deal with players as you wish in the DL including eliminating those players who cause an excessive fuss in your opinion. I would be free to deal with players as I wish in tournaments I run. Without the data in the player's hands, this will continue to hang over the game.
There you go again - re-loading is not proof that a player is cheating. :roll: There may be a perfectly innocent explanation. No, I am not free to deal with players as I wish in the FOG2DL. I try and run the tournament by consensus, unless my (very few) "red lines" are threatened. Player expulsion is a decision for the adjudication panel, not just me. Just as well really.

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:20 pm

julianbarker wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:07 pm
I have tried to read this entire discussion, but maybe I have missed it, but how exactly does one raise concerns one may have about suspicious or unusual behaviour?
Sorry, I missed this post first time round. :wink:

If you are playing in a tournament then contact the tournament organiser in the first instance. If it is in a friendly match you could either post something fairly general in the Technical forum, or if you have something a bit more specific then speak to Richard (rbodleyscott) by PM.

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by paulmcneil » Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:43 pm

So here's a funny thing...I just had a paired tournament game fall over on me with a fatal exception, so I've reported it to Slitherine with a screen shot of the error message and sent a message to my opponent explaining what has happened (Pete I copied you on it as I thought you may find it amusing). I will attempt to restart the game and see how we go. But I guess this may be a partial template for how to react if a restart happens outside of your control in some circumstances?
Paul McNeil

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:52 pm

paulmcneil wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:43 pm
So here's a funny thing...I just had a paired tournament game fall over on me with a fatal exception, so I've reported it to Slitherine with a screen shot of the error message and sent a message to my opponent explaining what has happened (Pete I copied you on it as I thought you may find it amusing). I will attempt to restart the game and see how we go. But I guess this may be a partial template for how to react if a restart happens outside of your control in some circumstances?
Too late. You are about to be shot! :P

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by devoncop » Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:31 pm

stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:52 pm
paulmcneil wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:43 pm
So here's a funny thing...I just had a paired tournament game fall over on me with a fatal exception, so I've reported it to Slitherine with a screen shot of the error message and sent a message to my opponent explaining what has happened (Pete I copied you on it as I thought you may find it amusing). I will attempt to restart the game and see how we go. But I guess this may be a partial template for how to react if a restart happens outside of your control in some circumstances?
Too late. You are about to be shot! :P

Not true.

First he will get a fair trial.

Only then will he be shot :wink:

(Sometimes it's good to be able to laugh at yourself)😁

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by paulmcneil » Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:44 pm

devoncop wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:31 pm
stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:52 pm
paulmcneil wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:43 pm
So here's a funny thing...I just had a paired tournament game fall over on me with a fatal exception, so I've reported it to Slitherine with a screen shot of the error message and sent a message to my opponent explaining what has happened (Pete I copied you on it as I thought you may find it amusing). I will attempt to restart the game and see how we go. But I guess this may be a partial template for how to react if a restart happens outside of your control in some circumstances?
Too late. You are about to be shot! :P

Not true.

First he will get a fair trial.

Only then will he be shot :wink:

(Sometimes it's good to be able to laugh at yourself)😁
It's a fair cop, but Society is to blame. I would like them shot as well please.
Paul McNeil

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by MikeMarchant » Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:23 pm

paulmcneil wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:44 pm
devoncop wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:31 pm
stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:52 pm


Too late. You are about to be shot! :P

Not true.

First he will get a fair trial.

Only then will he be shot :wink:

(Sometimes it's good to be able to laugh at yourself)😁
It's a fair cop, but Society is to blame. I would like them shot as well please.
Shoot me. Shoot me now.


Best Wishes

Mike

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by devoncop » Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:34 pm

MikeMarchant wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:23 pm
paulmcneil wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:44 pm
devoncop wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:31 pm



Not true.

First he will get a fair trial.

Only then will he be shot :wink:

(Sometimes it's good to be able to laugh at yourself)😁
It's a fair cop, but Society is to blame. I would like them shot as well please.
Shoot me. Shoot me now.


Best Wishes

Mike
Only once you have reloaded a turn Mike. We need some evidence you know.

This isn't some tinpot dictatorship. :D

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by MikeMarchant » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:19 pm

devoncop wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:34 pm
MikeMarchant wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:23 pm
paulmcneil wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:44 pm


It's a fair cop, but Society is to blame. I would like them shot as well please.
Shoot me. Shoot me now.


Best Wishes

Mike
Only once you have reloaded a turn Mike. We need some evidence you know.

This isn't some tinpot dictatorship. :D
Phew, thanks, Ian. A voice of reason.


Best Wishes

Mike

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Najanaja » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:57 pm

[quote=paulmcneil post_id=870638 time=1596645824 user_id=21008]
So here's a funny thing...I just had a paired tournament game fall over on me with a fatal exception, so I've reported it to Slitherine with a screen shot of the error message and sent a message to my opponent explaining what has happened (Pete I copied you on it as I thought you may find it amusing). I will attempt to restart the game and see how we go. [b]But I guess this may be a partial template for how to react if a restart happens outside of your control in some circumstances?[/b]
[/quote]

What an interesting idea!

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:01 pm

devoncop wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:34 pm
MikeMarchant wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:23 pm
paulmcneil wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:44 pm


It's a fair cop, but Society is to blame. I would like them shot as well please.
Shoot me. Shoot me now.


Best Wishes

Mike
Only once you have reloaded a turn Mike. We need some evidence you know.

This isn't some tinpot dictatorship. :D
LOL it is so nice and refreshing to see humour overshadow issues :lol:

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:15 pm

Najanaja wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:57 pm
paulmcneil wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:43 pm
So here's a funny thing...I just had a paired tournament game fall over on me with a fatal exception, so I've reported it to Slitherine with a screen shot of the error message and sent a message to my opponent explaining what has happened (Pete I copied you on it as I thought you may find it amusing). I will attempt to restart the game and see how we go. But I guess this may be a partial template for how to react if a restart happens outside of your control in some circumstances?
What an interesting idea!
There are multiple innocent reasons for restarts. I do not want to have to explain and post messages because my game has had to be reloaded. I don't want admin I just want to play the game and I do not cheat. I have played some players for years and they are extremely unlucky against me in just about every game we play and yet there are others that just always get the luck when I play them. Yes I have thought they must be cheating but only because of the continuous runs of exceptional results. However they can't be cheating as their luck continues in my round as well. I then play other players and the games are fair, tight and most enjoyable. I don't know why these runs of luck (for and against) occur against certain opponents but they certainly are the cause of concerns about cheating.

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by MikeC_81 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:17 am

stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:05 pm
I know something that you don't, but it is not for me to divulge what I know on here. If Slitherine wishes to release detailed information, some of which may be deemed commercially sensitive, then that is a decision they have to make, not me. But your accusation, and the general tone of your comments towards Slitherine on here, suggest that you think they are not being honest with us and that their standards are poor. I do not share that view and I know they are using these unfortunate set of circumstances to offer us something better in the future. Some of us do not mind being patient and we would prefer that they conduct a thorough, rather than a rushed, review.
.
.
.
We have smaller side tournaments and friendlies as well as Slitherine's own official tournaments. Why hide this information under any circumstances? A player with a self-professed bad connection says he reloaded 6 times in an entire year! I have had a bad connection for almost that long and I reloaded twice.
Commercial confidentiality, perhaps? Is there anyone who has played for a while who has not had to re-load a turn every once in a while?
How is knowing whether an opponent reloaded a turn or not commercially sensitive information? My tone is negative because of Ian's response to my very first post in which he declared reloads as "normal behaviour" and came just short of saying transparency on player reloads was out of the question due to a fear of false accusation of unpopular players. His followup post also indicated that transparency was not the preferred route. A review of the data is not required in my opinion. We just want it for ourselves. A majority of respondents are in favour of this approach.

That that many people whom I have had rather pointed philosophical differences over the approach of the game, like camping, would support my call for transparency would indicate that this is a mature community that would not stoop to the "worst-case" scenario that you and Ian are afraid of. We might differ on individual issues but they are just that - differences of opinion that don't spill over into unrelated matters. We just want to see transparency on a turn by turn basis.
stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:05 pm
Yes, and those people are free to not play in the DL or any other tournament where the organiser doesn't have a 0 tolerance policy. If no one is offering it, they can run their own tournament.
The FOG2DL does have a zero tolerance policy on cheating. If a player is proved to be cheating then they are gone. Within 24 hours. We have just demonstrated that with dkalenda without any assistance from you.
I was referring to 0 tolerance on reloads that some players (not me) would prefer. Once again you know this though but you misrepresent me to try and score points. Why?
stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:05 pm
Quite frankly, while you run the biggest tournament in town, you aren't the MP community. Your personal concerns are subsidiary.
Quite frankly, you are in my (FOG2DL) house. I have never claimed to be the MP community, or even one of its representatives. My concerns are no more, or no less important than yours, or anybody else.
I am "in your house" because this is where Slitherine chooses to keep its communications on the issue. Several times, players have raised suggestions that you have dismissed because of the fact that you run the DL and these changes would potentially pose a headache for you (ie your fear of having to adjudicate these matters which Pantherboy -a player in favour of turn by turn transparency - succinctly pointed out would not be an issue because you would not be required to). My point is that the logistical organisation of the DL should not be the primary lens by which we evaluate our options.
stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:05 pm
A large number of us don't trust Slitherine anymore to do the job properly.
A large number? I doubt it. But whatever, stop using this space in the FOG2DL forum to attack Slitherine and indirectly the FOG2DL. You are hardly a regular in the tournament so take your concerns to the main forum or communicate directly with Slitherine in future. The FOG2DL has been built up by the community over the last 3 years and you are tarnishing it by suggesting that cheating is a major problem. It isn't.
If most players are ok with Slitherine continuing to monitor privately why are most respondents positive over transparency? Also, feel free to quote me where I said it was a major problem. Where am I attacking the DL in any way shape or form? Once again it looks like you are building a straw man to score points. My stance has consistently been that Slitherine failed big time with dkalenda. Slitherine has said it doesn't have the manpower to solve the issue. Technical solutions without transparency must have a degree of tolerance that a cheater like dkalenda can exploit. Ergo, rather than Slitherine set the tolerances for us and leave us in the dark, have the reload information publicly available so the community can set its own tolerances.

stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:05 pm
Now we know that a player has PM'd concerns about reloading about Dkalenda in previous seasons and the verdict was always 'insufficient proof'. Not a slam dunk 'no he did not reload at all'. Most of us here support releasing the data. Let us do with it as we wish. You are free to deal with players as you wish in the DL including eliminating those players who cause an excessive fuss in your opinion. I would be free to deal with players as I wish in tournaments I run. Without the data in the player's hands, this will continue to hang over the game.
There you go again - re-loading is not proof that a player is cheating. :roll: There may be a perfectly innocent explanation. No, I am not free to deal with players as I wish in the FOG2DL. I try and run the tournament by consensus, unless my (very few) "red lines" are threatened. Player expulsion is a decision for the adjudication panel, not just me. Just as well really.
Where did I equate reloading to cheating? Certainly not where you quoted me. Strawman #3. My point was to illustrate the limitations of a non-transparent solution. Someone raised concerns with dkalenda. The answer was insufficient proof when Slitherine could have delivered a blunt 0 reload answer. Maybe this is one of the things that you know that I don't. In any case, this was a demonstration where if the information was public, perhaps dkalenda would have been intimidated by the transparency to never have gone on the cheating spree he did, to begin with since he would know he would be under increased scrutiny from the rest of the players. Instead, since it was handled behind the scenes, and then we get the 225 reload situation.

Stop taking this so personally. This is not an attack on you.
Stratford Scramble Tournament

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=494&t=99766&p=861093#p861093

FoG 2 Post Game Analysis Series on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKmEROEwX2fgjoQLlQULhPg/

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