The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

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stockwellpete
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Second poll now closed

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:59 pm

We have had a very good suggestion from NikiforosFokas today for an adjustment to the existing scoring system. It involves removing "ties" as a separate category (they will be treated as high-scoring draws in future) which then allows room for a marginal victory category that gives 3 points to the winner and 1 point to the loser, when the loser has scored 50% or more. Players involved in drawn matches in future will receive 2 points if they have scored 25% or more, otherwise they will score 0 points.

The full system is as follows . . .

a decisive win where the losing player scores less than 50% = 4 points for the winner, 0 for the loser
a marginal win where the losing player scores 50% or more = 3 points for the winner, 1 for the loser
a tie, or a draw where an individual player scores 25% or more = 2 points
a draw where an individual player scores less than 25% = 0 points

Please vote in the other poll as well if you haven't done so already. :D

markwatson360
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Re: Draws . . .

Post by markwatson360 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:13 pm

stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:29 pm
We have had out first agreed 0-0 draw this week. :twisted: It was because the two players had not realised after two turns that the terrain was prohibitive for both of them. For Season 4 I will increase the turn limit for agreeing a draw from 2 to 3.
I'm assumig this is my game vs harveylh in Div B of the Early middles ages section. The situation was actually quite complicated. Most of my Scotts Irish were taking cover in woods and I could see about half of his army. The situation in the league table was, he was sitting joint top with 7 wins from 7 starts with dkalenda having played one more game. I was a lowly 4th in the table with no chance of getting higher, I was quite amazed to see his units falling back with apparently no intention of doing battle. On turn 7 he suggested re-rolling another map but I pointed out that this needs to be agreed in the first 2 turns so we were stuck with the map we had. After a few turns of light infantry skirmishing we both agreed to call it a day, but I do feel he missed a trick as a 0-0 draw is equal to a loss pointswise. Anyway I was playing tactically based on the league situation, if i'd needed the points I would have been more aggressive (and probably lost :D )

edb1815
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by edb1815 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:34 pm

Looks good.

NikiforosFokas
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by NikiforosFokas » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:47 pm

I like this too.
For Byzantium!!

harveylh
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Re: Draws . . .

Post by harveylh » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:59 pm

markwatson360 wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:13 pm
stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:29 pm
We have had out first agreed 0-0 draw this week. :twisted: It was because the two players had not realised after two turns that the terrain was prohibitive for both of them. For Season 4 I will increase the turn limit for agreeing a draw from 2 to 3.
I'm assumig this is my game vs harveylh in Div B of the Early middles ages section. The situation was actually quite complicated. Most of my Scotts Irish were taking cover in woods and I could see about half of his army. The situation in the league table was, he was sitting joint top with 7 wins from 7 starts with dkalenda having played one more game. I was a lowly 4th in the table with no chance of getting higher, I was quite amazed to see his units falling back with apparently no intention of doing battle. On turn 7 he suggested re-rolling another map but I pointed out that this needs to be agreed in the first 2 turns so we were stuck with the map we had. After a few turns of light infantry skirmishing we both agreed to call it a day, but I do feel he missed a trick as a 0-0 draw is equal to a loss pointswise. Anyway I was playing tactically based on the league situation, if i'd needed the points I would have been more aggressive (and probably lost :D )
As Mark said it was complicated. Mark had all his medium inf hiding in the woods initially. By about turn 4 I had spotted about half of his inf and had started to advance my Indians towards them. However there was a very large woods on my other flank and since I had not spotted the other half of his inf I started thinking he was going to pour out of the woods and ambush me. So I started to pull back and moved all troops into an open area away from all woods. I had sent two LI partly into the very large woods early on, but had pulled them out as my skirmishers on the other flank were outnumbered. In hindsight I should have kept looking for the missing army half which I never did find. I thought sending my bow and elephants into the woods was a bad idea. Later Mark told me most of his army was hiding in the trees as he believed I would be more aggressive. I thought Mark had the advantage and it appears he thought I had the advantage. My first draw ever in all my league and slitherine tournament and friendly games.

Perhaps I should have been more aggressive but attacking Scots Irish in the woods with Indians seemed very low chance of success.

Harvey

jjaquemond
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by jjaquemond » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:26 pm

Good discussion - I like this idea as well

gamercb
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by gamercb » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:27 pm

Has my support as my aim was to reward those who have fought hard but lost having almost achieved a victory.

Barrold713
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Barrold713 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:19 am

I think anyone who selected the Krappodockians as their list for any previous league season should be awarded some retroactive points to balance the universe just a bit.

BDH

stockwellpete
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Re: Second indicative poll on marginal victory rule

Post by stockwellpete » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:21 am

This is looking better. :D

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Re: Indicative poll marginal victory rule threshold now 50%

Post by stockwellpete » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:28 pm

This poll will close on Sunday morning after I have finished the round-up.

stockwellpete
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Re: Indicative poll marginal victory rule threshold now 50%

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:41 am

I have locked this thread now. Thanks to everyone who has participated in what turned out to be a very close poll. Had this been the only proposal on the table I would have trialled it in one section in Season 4 as there was not enough support to roll it out across the league. Luckily, we do have a second poll running now so please vote in that one as well if you haven't done so already. :wink:

Voting was 13-14 against the idea of a marginal victory rule.

stockwellpete
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Re: Second indicative poll on marginal victory rule

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:32 am

This poll will run for another week an close on Sunday 9th December.

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Re: Draws . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:40 am

Latest statistics - there have now been 22 draws from 505 results, which is 4.35% (or roughly 1 in 22). One has been an agreed 0-0 draw and one Themed Event match was also adjudicated as a 0-0 draw. Apart from these two match, all players involved in drawn matches have received one point each. There has also been one tied match.

klayeckles
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Re: Second indicative poll on marginal victory rule

Post by klayeckles » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:20 am

so on a draw where i score 25+ and my opponent scores less than 25, i would get 2 and he would get 0...correct?

stockwellpete
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Re: Second indicative poll on marginal victory rule

Post by stockwellpete » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:52 am

klayeckles wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:20 am
so on a draw where i score 25+ and my opponent scores less than 25, i would get 2 and he would get 0...correct?
Yes. It is worth pointing out though that we have yet to have a drawn match where one player gets a point and the other does not. :wink:

SpeedyCM
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Re: Second indicative poll on marginal victory rule

Post by SpeedyCM » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:39 pm

It seems a little strange to me that people in a drawn match get 2 points for only inflicting 25% damage whereas someone that inflicts 50+% damage but loses only gets 1 point, likewise the winner of this match only getting 3 points seems odd.

To me this new proposal looks like it will encourage people to play for a draw more than the current system.

stockwellpete
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Re: Second indicative poll on marginal victory rule

Post by stockwellpete » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:12 pm

SpeedyCM wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:39 pm
It seems a little strange to me that people in a drawn match get 2 points for only inflicting 25% damage whereas someone that inflicts 50+% damage but loses only gets 1 point,
Well, there is still a big difference between winning and losing although we are narrowing the gap somewhat between a win, which always gets 4 points, and what might be called a "score draw" (25%+), which will now get 2 points instead of 1. Whereas this season, the gap between a win and a "score draw" was 4-1.
likewise the winner of this match only getting 3 points seems odd
The alternative would be to score it 4-1. On balance, I think 3-1 is preferable as matches that end something like 60-50+ are usually very close affairs that could easily end in draws, or with the other player winning. The result often depends on a single melee or rally outcome rather than clearly superior skill by one of the players.
To me this new proposal looks like it will encourage people to play for a draw more than the current system.
Yes, this is a possible outcome of narrowing the gap between a win and a draw. I have increased the threshold to 25% from this season's 20% figure in recognition of this and it may be necessary to raise it to 30% or even 40% in future. I will be keeping statistics next season as well. Currently, about 1 game in 20, or 5% of matches end in draws, which I think is OK. I do not want that figure to go much higher though. Certainly, if we end up with 10% draws next season then that will be too many and we would have to increase the scoring threshold for "score draws".

If players already feel that the 25% threshold is too low for a "score draw" please indicate in this thread now and I can consider increasing it to 30% for next season.

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Re: Second indicative poll on marginal victory rule

Post by pantherboy » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:46 pm

I don't think it will encourage draws as to reach 25% casualties it will require opposing armies to come to grips and at that point it is usually too difficult to extricate oneself safely or one player will feel that they have the upper hand and will force the issue.

stockwellpete
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Re: Draws . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:17 pm

Latest statistics - there have now been 27 draws from 542 results, which is 4.98% (or roughly 1 in 20). One has been an agreed 0-0 draw; one has been an agreed draw where both players did not do enough damage to score any points; and one Themed Event match was also adjudicated as a 0-0 draw. Apart from these three match, all players involved in drawn matches have received one point each. There has also been one tied match.

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Re: Second indicative poll on marginal victory rule

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:22 pm

This poll is now closed. Thank you to everyone who took part. The result is very clearly in favour of the proposal for a new scoring system and this will be introduced across the tournament for Season 4.

Voting was 20-6 in favour.

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