The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

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SnuggleBunnies
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Re: Revised army lists for Season 6 . . .

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:27 pm

I agree that this timeline is a noticeable thematic improvement

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Re: Revised army lists for Season 6 . . .

Post by Paul59 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:51 pm

Cunningcairn wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:45 am
Should all the allies available to an army in the standard FOG also be available in the TT mod?
The current version of the TT Mod (1.5.3) does not have the full range of allies that the latest version (1.5.12) of the main game has. When RBS implemented the allies feature for custom battles in 1.5.12 he expanded the number of ally options for many armies.

When I release the new version of the TT Mod, sometime after 11th August, it will have all the new ally options added to the army lists.

PS: Would it not be better to rename the Early Middle Ages section to "Dark Ages"? Otherwise things might get a bit confusing when we actually get later DLCs beyond 1050 AD.
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Re: Revised army lists for Season 6 . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:33 pm

Paul59 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:51 pm
PS: Would it not be better to rename the Early Middle Ages section to "Dark Ages"? Otherwise things might get a bit confusing when we actually get later DLCs beyond 1050 AD.
We have a cunning plan ready for this development - we will call the later medieval period the "High Middle Ages" to distinguish it from the earlier medieval section. It worked OK in the FOG1DL. :D

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Re: Skirmishers!!

Post by SpeedyCM » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:00 am

+1 to Morbio's post.

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Re: Skirmishers!!

Post by rexhurley » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:56 am

+1 to Morbio deve beat me with a Medium Foot impact army and Speedy is also up 36 to 4 a the moment.... enough said!

PS: I'm the only one to my knowledge that has been crazy enough to run these lists and okay I have been going well but in the end of the day its not easy grinding down mass HI, or Pike armies. Also note I originally took this list last season as a "piss take" because I was annoyed with my results with normal armies and bored, in the end of the day I have enjoyed it and the style of play, no different to Huns, Tartars, Dark Elves or Early WWII Russians on the tabletop some people don't like them but they are a challenge to win with them consistently due to how soft they actually are

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Re: Skirmishers!!

Post by Geffalrus » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:07 pm

rexhurley wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:56 am
+1 to Morbio deve beat me with a Medium Foot impact army and Speedy is also up 36 to 4 a the moment.... enough said!

PS: I'm the only one to my knowledge that has been crazy enough to run these lists and okay I have been going well but in the end of the day its not easy grinding down mass HI, or Pike armies. Also note I originally took this list last season as a "piss take" because I was annoyed with my results with normal armies and bored, in the end of the day I have enjoyed it and the style of play, no different to Huns, Tartars, Dark Elves or Early WWII Russians on the tabletop some people don't like them but they are a challenge to win with them consistently due to how soft they actually are
Karvon in my divisions also uses skirmish tactics, though he doesn't go all the way and use a "skirmish" army in the same sense that you do. Rather, he selects a lot of heavy cavalry and light troops, and then avoids melee combat until he hopefully has you strung out and/or worn down enough where his heavy cavalry are no longer at a disadvantage. His army is consistently hard to defeat, but also has a hard time securing victory.

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Re: Skirmishers!!

Post by Cunningcairn » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:19 pm

rexhurley wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:56 am
+1 to Morbio deve beat me with a Medium Foot impact army and Speedy is also up 36 to 4 a the moment.... enough said!

PS: I'm the only one to my knowledge that has been crazy enough to run these lists and okay I have been going well but in the end of the day its not easy grinding down mass HI, or Pike armies. Also note I originally took this list last season as a "piss take" because I was annoyed with my results with normal armies and bored, in the end of the day I have enjoyed it and the style of play, no different to Huns, Tartars, Dark Elves or Early WWII Russians on the tabletop some people don't like them but they are a challenge to win with them consistently due to how soft they actually are
Fair chirp!

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by paulmcneil » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:01 pm

No need to adjust numbers of skirmishers unless the lists are found to be historically inaccurate.
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by MikeMarchant » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:21 pm

A question for the historically better informed in our community:

FoG necessairly deals only with what occurs on the battlefield, but what occurs on the battlefield is not the whole story. In fact, I would dare suggest that it's the lesser part of war. This might mean that we do things on the battlefield, which might not be done on the battlefield historically.

If I was marching an army into a foreign territory and the inhabitans fielded and army of skirmishers against me, what would stop me from simply ignoring them, marching past, possibly waving, and then seizing their capital?

What possible threat could they pose me if they invaded my territory? Are they going to be able to seize a town or city?


Best Wishes

Mike

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Geffalrus » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:40 pm

MikeMarchant wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:21 pm
A question for the historically better informed in our community:

FoG necessairly deals only with what occurs on the battlefield, but what occurs on the battlefield is not the whole story. In fact, I would dare suggest that it's the lesser part of war. This might mean that we do things on the battlefield, which might not be done on the battlefield historically.

If I was marching an army into a foreign territory and the inhabitans fielded and army of skirmishers against me, what would stop me from simply ignoring them, marching past, possibly waving, and then seizing their capital?

What possible threat could they pose me if they invaded my territory? Are they going to be able to seize a town or city?


Best Wishes

Mike
They'd steal your baggage train in the dead of night leaving you in dire straights.

They'd ambush and slaughter your foragers and scouts, decreasing your food on the march and leaving you blind.

They'd occupy strategic fortifications or choke points where your cavalry and heavy infantry could be useless and then stone/arrow/javelin anyone who got too close.

They'd shower anyone crossing a river with missiles.

They'd murder smaller garrisons in the dead of night allowing the more loyal local inhabitants to reestablish control.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Cunningcairn » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:44 pm

Geffalrus wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:40 pm
MikeMarchant wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:21 pm
A question for the historically better informed in our community:

FoG necessairly deals only with what occurs on the battlefield, but what occurs on the battlefield is not the whole story. In fact, I would dare suggest that it's the lesser part of war. This might mean that we do things on the battlefield, which might not be done on the battlefield historically.

If I was marching an army into a foreign territory and the inhabitans fielded and army of skirmishers against me, what would stop me from simply ignoring them, marching past, possibly waving, and then seizing their capital?

What possible threat could they pose me if they invaded my territory? Are they going to be able to seize a town or city?


Best Wishes

Mike
They'd steal your baggage train in the dead of night leaving you in dire straights.

They'd ambush and slaughter your foragers and scouts, decreasing your food on the march and leaving you blind.

They'd occupy strategic fortifications or choke points where your cavalry and heavy infantry could be useless and then stone/arrow/javelin anyone who got too close.

They'd shower anyone crossing a river with missiles.

They'd murder smaller garrisons in the dead of night allowing the more loyal local inhabitants to reestablish control.
These are actions the French Resistance used in WW2. Annoying but not militarily significant. Any army of note would adapt and deal to this quite easily. FOG2 correctly details the troop types of each nation and therefore the troops allocated to the Numidians for example are correct with respect to their capabilities. However skirmisher armies were never a military threat hence no historic opponents troop types are adapted to specifically fight against them. As it is a game that needs to have opponents of more or less equal capability FOG2's point system increases the troop numbers of skirmisher armies to levels that never existed and are unrealistic. These nations used skirmisher tactics as they never had the manpower, technology, training and financial capability to do anything else. Skirmish tactics and the significance of what we term LF and LH in ancient battles was of military importance but scaled up to represent entire armies isn't and wasn't.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by MikeMarchant » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:08 pm

Geffalrus wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:40 pm
MikeMarchant wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:21 pm
A question for the historically better informed in our community:

FoG necessairly deals only with what occurs on the battlefield, but what occurs on the battlefield is not the whole story. In fact, I would dare suggest that it's the lesser part of war. This might mean that we do things on the battlefield, which might not be done on the battlefield historically.

If I was marching an army into a foreign territory and the inhabitans fielded and army of skirmishers against me, what would stop me from simply ignoring them, marching past, possibly waving, and then seizing their capital?

What possible threat could they pose me if they invaded my territory? Are they going to be able to seize a town or city?


Best Wishes

Mike
They'd steal your baggage train in the dead of night leaving you in dire straights.

They'd ambush and slaughter your foragers and scouts, decreasing your food on the march and leaving you blind.

They'd occupy strategic fortifications or choke points where your cavalry and heavy infantry could be useless and then stone/arrow/javelin anyone who got too close.

They'd shower anyone crossing a river with missiles.

They'd murder smaller garrisons in the dead of night allowing the more loyal local inhabitants to reestablish control.
Sounds like the tactics of the Ancient Brits against the Romans, but these light troops were only able to achieve this because there is also a large army on their side keeping the legions busy. Without that large army the legions would simply have put every village and town in the affected area to the torch and the resistance would have nowhere to sleep at night. Tactics that served the 20th C Brits very well in the Far East.

Best Wishes

Mike

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by SpeedyCM » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:04 am

Also the tactics the Persians and Parthians used against numerous Roman invasions until the Romans gave up and went home.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Geffalrus » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:43 am

Cunningcairn wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:44 pm
These are actions the French Resistance used in WW2. Annoying but not militarily significant. Any army of note would adapt and deal to this quite easily. FOG2 correctly details the troop types of each nation and therefore the troops allocated to the Numidians for example are correct with respect to their capabilities. However skirmisher armies were never a military threat hence no historic opponents troop types are adapted to specifically fight against them. As it is a game that needs to have opponents of more or less equal capability FOG2's point system increases the troop numbers of skirmisher armies to levels that never existed and are unrealistic. These nations used skirmisher tactics as they never had the manpower, technology, training and financial capability to do anything else. Skirmish tactics and the significance of what we term LF and LH in ancient battles was of military importance but scaled up to represent entire armies isn't and wasn't.
The Germans were more than just annoyed by the French Resistance. The Wehrmacht was most certainly an army of note, and though it tried to adapt, it never dealt with it easily. Military solutions to guerrilla attacks and insurgency are actually extremely costly and difficult, requiring large amounts of manpower and enough dedication to separate civilians from the resistance through extensive concentration camps. The much, much more effective method for dealing with insurgents is through diplomacy, negotiation, and money.

Also, you can't cost effectively adapt troop types to fight skirmishers on their own terms. Romans, Carthaginians, and Macedonians would instead go with the much cheaper method of hiring locals who were already skilled. Fighting horse archers? Hire local horse archers. Horse archery is a skill you need to have learned from an early age to be truly combat proficient. You can't just get trained for a few months and expect to compete. Same goes with foot skirmishers. All major powers utilized locals who were experienced with the terrain and combat of the enemy in question.

I do generally agree that many of the army comparisons result in weird matches because the armies are artificially drawn from even point values, which isn't what happened in history. That being said, Steppe Nomads fielded what we'd call skirmisher armies, and they have a very strong historical track record of conquest. Scythians. Parthians. Huns. Magyar. Mongols.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Karvon » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:37 am

What I'd like to see developed is an operational level multiplayer campaign game that would (optionally) kick in to fight engagements using FOG2. This would allow for more interesting options for scouting, ambushes, flank marches and encirclements.

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Re: Skirmishers!!

Post by rexhurley » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:40 am

Geffalrus wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:07 pm
rexhurley wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:56 am
+1 to Morbio deve beat me with a Medium Foot impact army and Speedy is also up 36 to 4 a the moment.... enough said!

PS: I'm the only one to my knowledge that has been crazy enough to run these lists and okay I have been going well but in the end of the day its not easy grinding down mass HI, or Pike armies. Also note I originally took this list last season as a "piss take" because I was annoyed with my results with normal armies and bored, in the end of the day I have enjoyed it and the style of play, no different to Huns, Tartars, Dark Elves or Early WWII Russians on the tabletop some people don't like them but they are a challenge to win with them consistently due to how soft they actually are
Karvon in my divisions also uses skirmish tactics, though he doesn't go all the way and use a "skirmish" army in the same sense that you do. Rather, he selects a lot of heavy cavalry and light troops, and then avoids melee combat until he hopefully has you strung out and/or worn down enough where his heavy cavalry are no longer at a disadvantage. His army is consistently hard to defeat, but also has a hard time securing victory.
Numidian and Moor lists don't have any heavy cav cuz. Early list only gets 2 Nellies, middle list some pretend legions, late list nada

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Karvon » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:35 am

I actually used the late Moors in last season's DL. The lack of any heavy shock troops was a challenge; I ended 3-3-3 with them. I probably could've done a little better but was overly aggressive in a couple of early games and ran afoul of a stream which caused my guys to get trapped into some unplanned melees in another game. They were fun though.

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Re: Revised army lists for Season 6 . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:32 am

Given that we have now adjusted the dates for the Early Middle Ages section to 600-1100 AD, the army list for Late Antiquity (100 BC - 600 AD) now looks like this . . .

Late Antiquity

Alan 25-650 AD
Ancient British 60 BC-80 AD
Anglo-Saxon 449-599 AD
Arab 312 BC-476 AD
Arab (Bedouin) 300-636 AD
Arab (City) 300-633 AD
Armenian Tigranes 83-69 BC
Armenian 253-476 AD
Armenian 477-627 AD
Atropatene 144 BC-226 AD
Avar 553-557 AD
Avar 558-631 AD
Bosporan 84-11 BC
Bosporan 11 BC-375 AD
Breton 411-579 AD
Byzantine 493-550 AD
Byzantine 551-578 AD
Byzantine 579-599 AD
Caledonian 50-225 AD
Caucasian 320 BC-476 AD
Dacian 50 BC-88 AD
Dacian 89-106 AD
Dacian (Carpi) 107-380 AD
Frankish 260-495 AD
Frankish 496-599 AD
Galatian 63-25 BC
Gallic 100-50 BC
Gepid 493-567 AD
Germanic Foot Tribes 105 BC-259 AD
Germanic/Gothic Foot Tribes 260-476 AD
Germanic/Gothic Horse Tribes 260-476 AD
Hephthalites 350-570 AD
Hunnic 250-375 AD
Hunnic 376-476 AD
Hunnic (Western) 376-454 AD
Hunnic, Western 455-559 AD
Hunnic, Sabir 463-558 AD

Iberian or Colchian 331 BC-252 AD
Indian 320-545 AD
Indian 546-599 AD
Indo-Greek 175 BC-10 AD
Indo-Parthian 60 BC-30 AD
Indo-Skythian 95 BC-50 AD
Jewish 110-64 BC
Jewish 64 BC-6 AD
Jewish Revolt 66-135 AD
Kingdom of Soissons 461-486 AD
Kushan 130 BC-476 AD
Libyan 300 BC-70 AD
Lombard 493-567 AD
Lombard 568-569 AD
Lombard 570-649 AD
​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Nabataean 260 BC-106 AD
Numidian or Moorish 55 BC-6 AD
Moorish 350-698 AD
Ostrogoth 493-561 AD
Palmyran 258-273 AD
Parthian 250 BC - 225 AD
Pictish 210-476 AD
Pontic 110-85 BC
Pontic 84-47 BC
Ptolemaic 55-30 BC
Roman 105-25 BC
Roman 24 BC–196 AD
Roman 197-284 AD
Roman 285-378 AD
Roman 379-424 AD
Roman 425-476 AD

Romano-British 407-599 AD
Sarmatian 25-375 AD
Sassanid Persian 224-349 AD
Sassanid Persian 349-476 AD
Sassanid Persian 477-590 AD
Scots-Irish 50 BC-476 AD
Seleucid 124-63 BC
Slav 500-599 AD
Slave Revolt 73-71 BC
Spanish (Sertorius) 80-70 BC
Turkish 552-599 AD
Vandal 442-499 AD
Vandal 500-534 AD
Welsh 477-599 AD

Note: the Hunnic (including the Hepthalite, or White Huns as they were called) and Roman have 6 armies in the list so two different armies from these groups will be allowed in a division from Season 6 onwards.

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Re: Revised army lists for Season 6 . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:04 am

I have been looking at this Late Antiquity list now that it has been extended from 100 BC to 600 AD. I think there are some very odd match ups there e.g. Armenian Tigranes (83-69 BC) v Welsh (477-599 AD). One way to adjust this is to bring the start date of this period forward to 0 AD, so that any army falling primarily between 100 BC-0 AD is transferred to Classical Antiquity. There are about 20 such armies in the list above. That would leave us with 63 armies in Late Antiquity which is more than sufficient.

In Classical Antiquity we would then have around 100 armies to choose from for next season, which is very large, but when the next Biblical DLC comes out there will be a decision to make about the cut off dates between Biblical and Classical Antiquity. The hoplite armies currently being used in Biblical will definitely be removed as they are not strictly "biblical" and are being used to make up the numbers at the moment. I think a likely cut off might be 650 BC as that would remove all the hoplite armies from Biblical.

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Re: Revised army lists for Season 6 . . .

Post by General Shapur » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:49 am

Will KoS be considered Roman ?
Look back over the past, with its changing empires that rose and fell, and you can foresee the future, too. M.A.

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