The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

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stockwellpete
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Stats from Biblical Season 9 . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:26 am

Here are the results of the army match-ups used in Season 9 of the Biblical section (W-D-L) . . .

Egyptian 664-571BC beat Kushite 727-656BC (Invasion of Lower Egypt 664BC) 22-1-13

Median 836-627 BC beat Skythian 750-551 BC (Skythian invasion 653 BC) 24-1-11

Greek 680-461 BC beat Lydian 687-551 BC (Campaign 615 BC) 24-0-12

Assyrian 681-609 BC lost to Babylonian 626-539 BC with Median 626-550 BC allies (Fall of Assyria 613 BC) 16-0-20

Indian 500 BC-319 AD lost to Persian 545-481 BC (Persian invasion 518-516 BC) 11-1-24

From these results the Assyrian-Babylonian match-up was clearly the closest one, with the other 4 match-ups having very similar results. One of the purposes of compiling these stats was to see if any of the match-ups were unbalanced, but on the evidence there is nothing glaringly obvious. Next season players entering Biblical will be choosing their own armies and the arranged historical match-ups will return for Season 11. I will try and find some new army match-ups for then, but it seems that all of these Season 9 ones might be considered again at a future date.

Any comments?

kronenblatt
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Re: Stats from Biblical Season 9 . . .

Post by kronenblatt » Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:05 pm

Very interesting: thanks, Pete. As you say, not too obviously unbalanced, but not many observations (36) to draw extensive statistical conclusions from. In the end though, balanced enough for me, since these are all mirror games.

If possible, it would be fun in Season 11 with other matchups than the ones above (although Assyrian vs Babylonian, Greek vs Lydian, and Egyptian vs Kushite (in that order) could very well be revisited, if needed). I can help assist you with the research, if you want to?
Arranging the The Year of Many Emperors (TYME), Dividing the Spoils (DiSp), The West is No More (TWiNM), and An Empire in Flames (AEiF) tournaments as well as the Ever-Green League for Field of Glory II: Ancients!

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Re: Stats from Biblical Season 9 . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:09 pm

kronenblatt wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:05 pm
If possible, it would be fun in Season 11 with other matchups than the ones above (although Assyrian vs Babylonian, Greek vs Lydian, and Egyptian vs Kushite (in that order) could very well be revisited, if needed). I can help assist you with the research, if you want to?
Thanks, but I am sure that I can manage this myself. :wink:

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Re: Stats from Biblical Season 9 . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:31 pm

stockwellpete wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:09 pm
kronenblatt wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:05 pm
If possible, it would be fun in Season 11 with other matchups than the ones above (although Assyrian vs Babylonian, Greek vs Lydian, and Egyptian vs Kushite (in that order) could very well be revisited, if needed). I can help assist you with the research, if you want to?
Thanks, but I am sure that I can manage this myself. :wink:
Pete will you be using the TT mod next season?

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Re: Stats from Biblical Season 9 . . .

Post by kronenblatt » Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:33 pm

stockwellpete wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:09 pm
kronenblatt wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:05 pm
If possible, it would be fun in Season 11 with other matchups than the ones above (although Assyrian vs Babylonian, Greek vs Lydian, and Egyptian vs Kushite (in that order) could very well be revisited, if needed). I can help assist you with the research, if you want to?
Thanks, but I am sure that I can manage this myself. :wink:
I'm sure of that too.
Arranging the The Year of Many Emperors (TYME), Dividing the Spoils (DiSp), The West is No More (TWiNM), and An Empire in Flames (AEiF) tournaments as well as the Ever-Green League for Field of Glory II: Ancients!

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Re: Stats from Biblical Season 9 . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:08 am

Cunningcairn wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:31 pm
Pete will you be using the TT mod next season?
No, not for Season 10.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by DzonVejn » Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:56 am

Maybe you could consider using paired matches system in league also?

Depending on armies some matches can end up being quite one-way. Also that would remove the problem of "one army per group", and consequently order of picks.

In my personal opinion that would be merging best of both 😊 (like tournaments but not with 2 weeks fixed time frame).

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by stockwellpete » Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:34 pm

DzonVejn wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:56 am
Maybe you could consider using paired matches system in league also?

Depending on armies some matches can end up being quite one-way. Also that would remove the problem of "one army per group", and consequently order of picks.

In my personal opinion that would be merging best of both 😊 (like tournaments but not with 2 weeks fixed time frame).
Well, we have introduced "mirror matches" into Biblical now and that is a permanent change. And "mirror matches" have been used in the Themed Event for a few seasons now and that is also permanent. I am loathe to use them any more than this because it would mean losing the 10-player divisions, which are a core element of the FOG2DL. It is also true that not everyone likes "mirror matches" so I think the mixture that we have now is probably the best arrangement. There is something for everyone. :wink:

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by DzonVejn » Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:52 pm

Ah, I didn't notice that with biblical. Seems I'll have to read more carefully :wink:

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Herode_2 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:53 pm

Hi there ! happy to see Pete's tournaments are still active. Great job guy(s) !
Pete, feel free to count me in any section where you lack players or reserves as you wish.
Reminder :
- I am a low tier player
- only one section for me since I don't have time to play multiple tournaments at once.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by stockwellpete » Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:42 pm

Herode_2 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:53 pm
Hi there ! happy to see Pete's tournaments are still active. Great job guy(s) !
Pete, feel free to count me in any section where you lack players or reserves as you wish.
Reminder :
- I am a low tier player
- only one section for me since I don't have time to play multiple tournaments at once.
PM sent.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by SLancaster » Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:43 pm

I don't think I am particularly keen on mirror matches so I will see how it goes in practice in Biblical in Season 10. I also don't think mirror matches should be used outside Themed and Biblical because it is nice just to have your own army and play with it through the season.

I used to be against 1600 points but I think for Classical and Late Antiquity it works well. I like the idea of the other sections being 1200 points as default for the variety. As others have mentioned, armies seemed to generally be smaller in battles outside the Classical and Late Antiquity periods.

I wonder if it is easier just to make every section 1200 or 1600 and that is that. Some people may prefer to choose but when setting up does it waste time and lead to mistakes?

Looking forward to getting back into the saddle, anyway.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Cunningcairn » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:29 pm

SLancaster wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:43 pm
I don't think I am particularly keen on mirror matches so I will see how it goes in practice in Biblical in Season 10. I also don't think mirror matches should be used outside Themed and Biblical because it is nice just to have your own army and play with it through the season.

I used to be against 1600 points but I think for Classical and Late Antiquity it works well. I like the idea of the other sections being 1200 points as default for the variety. As others have mentioned, armies seemed to generally be smaller in battles outside the Classical and Late Antiquity periods.

I wonder if it is easier just to make every section 1200 or 1600 and that is that. Some people may prefer to choose but when setting up does it waste time and lead to mistakes?

Looking forward to getting back into the saddle, anyway.
I think having a different army sizes per section is a good thing and I doubt it will cause any issues. I'm not a fan of having a choice of army size with a default in each section. Some armies are better at one size than they are at another so best to just stick with what you have chosen. I also don't like mirror matches when I'm picking my own army but like it in the Themed event. As you probably know I have always been in favour of larger armies but I think 1200 points is good for Biblical and probably the High Middle Ages with Early Middle Ages possibly being better at 1600 points. Classical and Later Antiquity are just so much better at 1600 points. May the Gods be with you this season :-)

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by paulmcneil » Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:50 am

I much prefer the larger games as they give at least a chance of success against the "camp down on a hill or wood and fire arrows at everything" armies/players the width of the board adding to the chance to manoeuvre with lighter armies against the "wall of spears bulldozer armies, as most of the early middle ages seem to be now. The bigger the map the better.
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by nyczar » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:54 pm

Interesting....despite a vote some month ago that was barely in favor of larger armies (1,600 points) across the digital league, upon review of the two divisions I am playing this season, the preference for 1,600 point battles is overwhelmingly (my guess more than 90%) in favor of 1,600 point contests. Given the size of the tournament again, I have to think that no one dropped out due to the 1,600 point option so I am wondering if anyone who voted for 1,200 points might share the evolution of their thinking in favor of 1,600?

Edit: I have not been keeping up with the rally point and I see this may have already be addressed....

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Cunningcairn » Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:47 pm

paulmcneil wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:50 am
I much prefer the larger games as they give at least a chance of success against the "camp down on a hill or wood and fire arrows at everything" armies/players the width of the board adding to the chance to manoeuvre with lighter armies against the "wall of spears bulldozer armies, as most of the early middle ages seem to be now. The bigger the map the better.
Yes I agree and don't see why we couldn't play with a map one size up on the standard for that army size especially for the 1200 point games. It some instances with heavy terrain there is very little opportunity for varied deployment and maneuver is restricted. It won't stop camping though and those inclined to do so might feel more intimidated by the wide open spaces offered to them. It might effect the armies players choose to use which might not be a bad thing.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Cunningcairn » Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:48 pm

nyczar wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:54 pm
Interesting....despite a vote some month ago that was barely in favor of larger armies (1,600 points) across the digital league, upon review of the two divisions I am playing this season, the preference for 1,600 point battles is overwhelmingly (my guess more than 90%) in favor of 1,600 point contests. Given the size of the tournament again, I have to think that no one dropped out due to the 1,600 point option so I am wondering if anyone who voted for 1,200 points might share the evolution of their thinking in favor of 1,600?

Edit: I have not been keeping up with the rally point and I see this may have already be addressed....
You think we might even see some games at 2000 points :-)

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by Karvon » Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:47 pm

Well, I for one have dropped divisions with default 1600 point games. Perhaps there are others.

I would be in favor of bigger maps though.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by SLancaster » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:05 am

nyczar wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:54 pm
Interesting....despite a vote some month ago that was barely in favor of larger armies (1,600 points) across the digital league, upon review of the two divisions I am playing this season, the preference for 1,600 point battles is overwhelmingly (my guess more than 90%) in favor of 1,600 point contests. Given the size of the tournament again, I have to think that no one dropped out due to the 1,600 point option so I am wondering if anyone who voted for 1,200 points might share the evolution of their thinking in favor of 1,600?

Edit: I have not been keeping up with the rally point and I see this may have already be addressed....
For me, I was quite against going to 1600 points for a lot of the sections. However, after playing in Classical and Late Antiquity I can see the benefits.. These are the most popular sections it would seem. I think Classical is my favourite and then Late Antiquity. Quite a lot of players I have talked to agree with me. Classical has so much variety with all the various types of troops and cavalry. Spearmen, pikes, different kinds of medium infantry, the Romans, elephants, and on it goes. It is one of the most popular periods in wargaming as a whole. In this way, having 1600 points brings out a lot of the variety on to the battlefield.

If you compare Biblical and Early Middle Ages periods you don't see the same variety. You just get more archers and spearmen, and more shieldwalls in the later period. For me, I would probably keep Biblical and Early Middle Ages at 1200 points.

Late Antiquity can probably go either way. Sometimes people just spam huge cavalry armies. But, for a lot of the lists you have a good variety of troops. The cataphracts, lancers, elephants, and spearmen, etc.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by SLancaster » Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:06 am

My first game of the Digital League and I get into a 'debate' about map rerolls. Honestly, as things stand now, I think I would ban them. I don't know what others think.

I remember this happened to me last season. A player asked for a map reroll and I said no. I just tell players that I play on whatever is in front of me. I have never asked for a map reroll myself in all the time I have played. Monkey put it well when he said, "I thought that pot luck map meant you played with what you were given, good or bad. You were right to decline." On any map there will usually be an advantage for one of the players so best to play on what you are given is my philosophy.

In both cases after saying no my opponent thought that a draw would be best unless I completely left the hill or rough ground. An agreed draw in both cases was the outcome.

Would it be better just to play on without being able to ask for a draw? Would this make things worse? In both cases, there was a bit of bad feeling and it just didn't make for an enjoyable game and we both wanted a draw to move on.

In other tournaments there are no map rerolls.

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