The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

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SLancaster
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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by SLancaster » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:33 pm

I am trying to explain what the person was wanting.. Yes, the other player was misinterpreting the rules about a restart. Although, as I have stated, I don’t like the idea of any restart as it is a random map and we should play on what we have before us. That is my personal view on that. I then explained why a restart is annoying because of the time it takes to set up a match.

The key issue here is that some seem to think that a restart is normal and perfectly acceptable. You just say we will restart and we all restart. I think a restart should be only in rare cases and not the norm.

It makes me feel awkward when I say no to someone who asks for a restart. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth to be perfectly honest. I joined the league to have some fun and learn how to play. I didn’t join the league to be arguing over maps and restarts.

Restarts apparently only came in this season I was told. Players may just think they can ask for a restart until the terrain fits their army. It should be clear as you have said that both players should agree. No one should go into a league battle *expecting* a restart when they ask for one!

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Re: Restarting League Games

Post by stockwellpete » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:11 pm

SLancaster wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:20 pm
Apparently, in previous seasons of the Digital League there wasn't this opportunity to restart matches.
Yes, it is a new rule this season. It was brought in as part of an effort to reduce the number of drawn matches that had increased sharply in Season 2.
Okay, if two players agree to restart fair enough.
Good, so you agree with the rule change.
But, it should not be deemed obligatory and should be seen to be quite rare in my book.
It is not deemed obligatory and will not happen very often. If a player does not like the rule at all then they can always refuse a re-start and in that way they will never experience one.
As far as I can see the guy I am playing didn't even set his army up and just believed we would restart.
Well, that is his mistake. It is not a mistake of the rules. Are you playing that match on the original battlefield now?

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by SLancaster » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:24 pm

Well, you say it won’t happen very often. This is only my second league game and I have been asked to restart. Let’s hope we don’t get many more requests.

We are playing on the original battlefield. His army was set back but set up.

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Re: Restarting League Games

Post by nyczar » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:29 am

SLancaster wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:20 pm
I just played my first mp league match v a phalanx army and got trounced. I set the second game up as per the instructions. The guy I am playing announced on turn 1 that we should restart the game because the terrain was hilly and had a lot of forests. Not good for his phalanx! I don't want to restart because I have some kind of advantage it would seem.. I need to use anything that I can get as for new players fighting a phalanx army can be daunting if you are not the Romans.
I am wondering if restarts are being tracked or reported at all. The above sounds like a case of the type of restart request we want to avoid occuring. It might be helpful if a screenshot was sent to the moderator(s). My thinking is that it would be helpful to train folks on how to spot a boring dry battle. As the rule was put forth I always assume it was meant for those top players who had a multiple turn vision and could see moves and counter moves well in advance, never for sour grapes about difficult terrain (some of my most fun battles have been on rocks).

Anyway, I would be very interested to see the circumstances that led to a mutually agreed restart....

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by jjaquemond » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:47 am

Chiming in late – just discovered this thread.

I’m the one who requested the re-start.

I believed the terrain was likely to produce a sterile match or a draw. 80% of the map being covered in difficult sloped mountains topped with rough ground.

I have a heavy Phalanx army with No incentive to enter massively disordering terrain - so it forces me to just sit in my deployment zone (the only clear area) and wait for my opponent....not exactly a thrilling game (minimal maneuver, turteling etc)

Isn’t that EXACTLY what the above rule is trying to mitigate?

I politely requested a re-start (manners Messieurs!) My opponent refused – fair enough, now we have a boring battle to look forward to with minimal maneuver.

Play on!

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by SLancaster » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:29 am

Yes, but this in my opinion is the problem with the whole idea of restarts - there is some kind of expectation that it is wrong to say no to the offer. It is a random map and all players should play on what is before them. If it is hilly for phalanxes then it is hilly. I honestly think it is ridiculous to see it any other way.

If people honestly believe that certain maps cannot be played on for certain armies then we shouldn’t be playing on random maps. Players should agree beforehand to play on wonderfully dry, open plains for their mass phalanxes. The whole thing quickly becomes somewhat absurd.

The other point is what happens if on the restart the map is again hilly and full of forests? We have to set up again looking for a nice, flat battlefield?

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by rbodleyscott » Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:57 am

One issue with the current rule - 2 turns may not be enough to establish that one player is planning to remain parked in a position that would be suicidal to attack. I would ask him whether he intendeds to do so before requesting a map re-roll. By the time that discussion is complete the 2 turns might be up.

Also, I agree with the players above who say that the whole business leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. I felt compelled to ask for a re-roll in one of my games, because in my view (though not my opponent's) an attack would have been suicidal. Under the old system I would have settled for a 1 point draw if the enemy chose not to leave his position. I felt bad about asking for the re-roll, and concerned that my opponent would think worse of me for doing so.

TBH I preferred the previous rules, even if it did lead to more draws. i.e. No map re-rolls, score 1 for all draws.

Personally I don't see that the Draws "issue" needed fixing. It was just another way to sort out the best players (who still managed to win their sections despite the possibility of draws) from the less good (like me, who didn't).
Richard Bodley Scott

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by devoncop » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:02 am

Agree totally with the opposition to restarts.....for the avoidance of doubt in All my remaining games I will politely advise any opponents I will neither be asking for nor accepting any restarts .

How many generals ever ended up fighting on terrain unsuitable for their armies ?....almost all at one time of another....particularly the bad ones (like me ☺).

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by SLancaster » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:16 am

That is exactly what I had in mind as well, devoncop!

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by SpeedyCM » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:50 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:57 am

Also, I agree with the players above who say that the whole business leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. I felt compelled to ask for a re-roll in one of my games, because in my view (though not my opponent's) an attack would have been suicidal. Under the old system I would have settled for a 1 point draw if the enemy chose not to leave his position. I felt bad about asking for the re-roll, and concerned that my opponent would think worse of me for doing so.
Don't feel bad about asking for a reroll on that map, it was a pretty bad map for our respective forces with a choice of a big difficult slope hill which I deployed my sparabara foot in front of deliberately so when they were forced back onto the difficult slope both forces would be disrupted and hopefully slow down the inevitable collapse and rout of my infantry and give my cavalry the time it needs to have an impact.
The only other option would have been to deploy in the open field which would have seen your pikemen, hoplites and heavy weapon troops overrun my infantry in short order.

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Re: Restarting League Games

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:57 am

nyczar wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:29 am
I am wondering if restarts are being tracked or reported at all. The above sounds like a case of the type of restart request we want to avoid occuring. It might be helpful if a screenshot was sent to the moderator(s). My thinking is that it would be helpful to train folks on how to spot a boring dry battle. As the rule was put forth I always assume it was meant for those top players who had a multiple turn vision and could see moves and counter moves well in advance, never for sour grapes about difficult terrain (some of my most fun battles have been on rocks).

Anyway, I would be very interested to see the circumstances that led to a mutually agreed restart....
No, I am not tracking the number of re-starts during the course of the season. I have quite enough to do as it is. :wink:

I think most players can generally recognise a battlefield that is likely to produce a sterile draw although maybe some newer players are less able to do this. As the league is organised on the basis that you play opponents of a similar skill level in most, if not all, of your matches, then I don't think the re-start rule usually advantages one player over the other. I will be re-opening the discussion about the new rule changes introduced to deal with draws at the end of the season and players can feed their experiences into that. I should also say that I am fairly certain that some players were agreeing re-starts in previous seasons even though we did not have the re-start rule at all.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:01 am

jjaquemond wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:47 am
Chiming in late – just discovered this thread.

I’m the one who requested the re-start.

I believed the terrain was likely to produce a sterile match or a draw. 80% of the map being covered in difficult sloped mountains topped with rough ground.

I have a heavy Phalanx army with No incentive to enter massively disordering terrain - so it forces me to just sit in my deployment zone (the only clear area) and wait for my opponent....not exactly a thrilling game (minimal maneuver, turteling etc)

Isn’t that EXACTLY what the above rule is trying to mitigate?

I politely requested a re-start (manners Messieurs!) My opponent refused – fair enough, now we have a boring battle to look forward to with minimal maneuver.

Play on!
Yes, you were perfectly entitled to request a change of map - and your opponent was quite entitled to decline. It sounds like the sort of map where many players would be seeking to get a re-start, I would have done myself. I don't see any problem here at all, to be honest.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:14 am

SLancaster wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:29 am
Yes, but this in my opinion is the problem with the whole idea of restarts - there is some kind of expectation that it is wrong to say no to the offer.
No, that is just in your head. Players are perfectly entitled to say no. We had a full discussion about all this during the close season and one category of matches that was causing a lot of sterile draws was when the map was severely restricting the deployment of one of the players, or where it was "suicide" for one or both of the armies to move out of their deployment zone e.g. a largely MF army could not move onto an open plain if fighting against a lancer, or mostly HF army.
It is a random map and all players should play on what is before them. If it is hilly for phalanxes then it is hilly. I honestly think it is ridiculous to see it any other way. If people honestly believe that certain maps cannot be played on for certain armies then we shouldn’t be playing on random maps. Players should agree beforehand to play on wonderfully dry, open plains for their mass phalanxes. The whole thing quickly becomes somewhat absurd.

The other point is what happens if on the restart the map is again hilly and full of forests? We have to set up again looking for a nice, flat battlefield?
You just don't like the rule. I think it is very sensible to allow players to change the map if they both agree to. Why should they be forced to play a match on a rotten map? You are allowed two re-starts by agreement so the third map has to be played on. It is very unlikely that players will get two really horrible maps in a row. I am not going to be changing the rule during the course of this season. We will see how players feel about it at the end of the season.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:24 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:57 am
One issue with the current rule - 2 turns may not be enough to establish that one player is planning to remain parked in a position that would be suicidal to attack. I would ask him whether he intendeds to do so before requesting a map re-roll. By the time that discussion is complete the 2 turns might be up.
We can talk about this again at the end of the season. Personally, I can tell if a map is likely to lead to a sterile game just by looking at it in the deployment phase. Maybe an impassable river has lopped off one-third of it and then there are mountains, steep hills or forests blocking other parts of map. Or the map is one where it would be suicidal for me to move out of the deployment zone.
Also, I agree with the players above who say that the whole business leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. I felt compelled to ask for a re-roll in one of my games, because in my view (though not my opponent's) an attack would have been suicidal. Under the old system I would have settled for a 1 point draw if the enemy chose not to leave his position. I felt bad about asking for the re-roll, and concerned that my opponent would think worse of me for doing so.
I find this ridiculous. The rules are clearly explained. You are entitled to ask and your opponent is entitled to say yes or no. End of. Either agree the re-start or get on with the game.
TBH I preferred the previous rules, even if it did lead to more draws. i.e. No map re-rolls, score 1 for all draws.

Personally I don't see that the Draws "issue" needed fixing. It was just another way to sort out the best players (who still managed to win their sections despite the possibility of draws) from the less good (like me, who didn't).
This was decided democratically at the end of last season and there were very strong feelings expressed by some regarding negative play. We are not having a second referendum now. Re-start means re-start. :D

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:26 am

devoncop wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:02 am
Agree totally with the opposition to restarts.....for the avoidance of doubt in All my remaining games I will politely advise any opponents I will neither be asking for nor accepting any restarts .

How many generals ever ended up fighting on terrain unsuitable for their armies ?....almost all at one time of another....particularly the bad ones (like me ☺).
But the rule is worded precisely in the way it is to allow players who do not like re-starts to avoid them. No one will ever be forced into a re-start under the current system. It will always be an entirely voluntary procedure.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by devoncop » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:23 am

Ok. Fair enough. Seems it has certainly got some debate going though. Thanks for the reply. 👍

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:30 pm

Not many draws about so far, are there? In fact, we haven't had one yet. :D

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by markwatson360 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:55 pm

Not many draws about so far, are there? In fact, we haven't had one yet. :D
Is this a good thing?

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:10 pm

markwatson360 wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:55 pm
Is this a good thing?
Yes, I would say so, on balance. The whole point of the discussion we had was to try and find ways to reduce negative play and so far we seem to be doing OK on that score. It is not that all draws represent dull matches of course, some can be extremely exciting encounters, but I will not be sorry to see agreed 0-0 draws disappear from the tournament.

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Re: The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

Post by SLancaster » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:39 pm

Well, I don't think it is in my head. I have talked to a few experienced wargamers and they say that restarts should never have been introduced because they are likely to cause arguments. Which is precisely what I think.

In the example I gave there was the preconception that a restart should have been given which is precisely what creates 'bad feeling'. If we play on random maps then we should play on whatever comes up.. If people really think so strongly that certain maps are 'unplayable' then they should be excluded before we set up so as not to waste people's time.

PS It is restart not re-start!

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