The Discussion thread . . .

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bbogensc
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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by bbogensc » Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:34 am

(1) Fewer people are playing in league because its not well-designed not because of my dropping out for goodness sake. But, reading the post from Stockwellpete, I made the right decision. For Stockwellpete to put his buddy directly in Group A in Season 2 speaks for itself. How can the game be increasing in sales sand league play declining I wonder?

(2) On the continued snarky posts about re-loading... three months ago it was "impossible", one month ago it was a "conspiracy theory", then 3 weeks ago it was possible but "not workable as a strategy because there are controls", then 1 week ago it turns out the controls are very limited or nonexistent.

A snarky post seems to appear immediately telling any player that reports a concern that they are just wrong or paranoid, anybody who makes a formal report of cheating gets a sanction. So, under these conditions, I would not expect other players who experience game re-loading to raise concerns and probably they will just drop out of league or stop playing the game.

stockwellpete
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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:54 am

bbogensc wrote:(1) Fewer people are playing in league because its not well-designed not because of my dropping out for goodness sake. But, reading the post from Stockwellpete, I made the right decision. For Stockwellpete to put his buddy directly in Group A in Season 2 speaks for itself. How can the game be increasing in sales sand league play declining I wonder?
Less people are playing in this season of the FOG2DL because it is the "summer season". This is normal. I expect there will be more players for the "autumn season" which starts in October. The player put directly into Division A is not a "buddy" of mine. I have never played against him or communicated with him before this season of the FOG2DL. Can you stop making unwarranted allegations please?
(2) On the continued snarky posts about re-loading... three months ago it was "impossible", one month ago it was a "conspiracy theory", then 3 weeks ago it was possible but "not workable as a strategy because there are controls", then 1 week ago it turns out the controls are very limited or nonexistent.

A snarky post seems to appear immediately telling any player that reports a concern that they are just wrong or paranoid, anybody who makes a formal report of cheating gets a sanction. So, under these conditions, I would not expect other players who experience game re-loading to raise concerns and probably they will just drop out of league or stop playing the game.
The question of cheating is not actually my responsibility as I have no technical role within Slitherine, and so when something like this arises I always refer the issue immediately to them. If you are not satisfied with the answers you have been given by Slitherine then take it up with them, not me, and not in this discussion forum either.

bbogensc
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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by bbogensc » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:21 am

Yeah, its a little puzzling that a player you don't know and never communicated with went directly into Div A. Any other new player would need to play a calendar year of successful league games in order to make Div A. That was your decision, right? So, you ought to know the reasons for that decision and could explain at any time.

The problem I had when dropping out of league is that I reported a situation consistent with game-reloading occurring in league, both you and Slitherine knew this was possible at the time, and then you sanctioned me for making the report and claimed it was "impossible". If fact, you knew then it was possible as this was a problem all the way back with FOG multiplayer, let alone FOGII.

stockwellpete
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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:43 am

bbogensc wrote:Yeah, its a little puzzling that a player you don't know and never communicated with went directly into Div A. Any other new player would need to play a calendar year of successful league games in order to make Div A. That was your decision, right? So, you ought to know the reasons for that decision and could explain at any time.
Not puzzling at all. Nosy_Rat came second in the Legions Triumphant automated tournament beating mst007, devoncop and SpeedyCM in the process. All these are very good players with considerable FOG2DL experience. So I made the decision on that basis as I had a gap to fill in an "A" division. On his performance I rated him "B/A" and so he got an "A" and a "B" division. That is the explanation. Your insinuation that something else is going on is pathetic.
The problem I had when dropping out of league is that I reported a situation consistent with game-reloading occurring in league, both you and Slitherine knew this was possible at the time, and then you sanctioned me for making the report and claimed it was "impossible". If fact, you knew then it was possible as this was a problem all the way back with FOG multiplayer, let alone FOGII.
Rubbish. You dropped out of Season 2 of the league two days after it started. The incident you are referring to happened in Season 1. So why did you enter Season 2 if you have such a low opinion of what is offered in the FOG2DL? My suspicion is that you deliberately tried to cause disruption at the start of the tournament.

My understanding is that if people do re-load turns, it is recorded on the server and Slitherine then intervenes. That is what they tell me and I believe them. I am completely in their hands as far as monitoring player activity is concerned. I am not an employee of Slitherine.

bbogensc
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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by bbogensc » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:06 am

I was not referring to Nosy_Rat. He is a fantastic player with a solid track record. I am obviously referring to the other player you put in Div A.

If you recall, I inquired before Season 2 started that I was concerned the re-loading turns issue had not been addressed. You then told me we should not talk about this on the forums. Ring any bells? I also thought by dropping out a person on the waiting list would get to play instead and that person might enjoy being in league. Are you saying now you did not have reserve players for league? Really, you are just making any personal attack against me you can think of

bbogensc
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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by bbogensc » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:15 am

On the reloading turns, a veteran player actually reported he got the warning, and the process is extremely loose so it allows new players to reload, at minimum. Also, when I made the first report to you and Slitherine months ago, that player I reported then appears to have gotten the warning for activity during my league match, then lost his next 5 consecutive public games, presumably because he could not reload his turn anymore. If this does not constitute a proper and valid report, then there really is no situation that ever would.

stockwellpete
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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:12 am

bbogensc wrote:I was not referring to Nosy_Rat. He is a fantastic player with a solid track record. I am obviously referring to the other player you put in Div A.
Who then?
If you recall, I inquired before Season 2 started that I was concerned the re-loading turns issue had not been addressed. You then told me we should not talk about this on the forums. Ring any bells? I also thought by dropping out a person on the waiting list would get to play instead and that person might enjoy being in league. Are you saying now you did not have reserve players for league? Really, you are just making any personal attack against me you can think of
You had been answered by Richard in detail during Season 1 and then just before Season 2 started you raised it all over again. I don't want your unsubstantiated allegations of widespread cheating to tarnish the FOG2DL. I put a lot of work into it, thanks. So raise your concerns in the main Slitherine forum so Richard can deal with them, not in the FOG2DL or KO Tournament forums. The monitoring of player's behaviour regarding possible cheating is nothing to do with me, it is Slitherine's responsibility and I am guided entirely by them.

So you are now saying you left the league after two days for altruistic reasons. Amazing. :roll: I wonder how the players who you had started matches with felt about it? And I did not immediately have enough players to cover your 5 places because I had to take one of the slots even though I have hardly played for the last couple of months. I also had to re-write all the fixture schedules and charts/tables because I keep everything in alphabetical order.

I think players can see exactly what you are like. You don't even have the decency to wait until the KO Tournament is over. Even though you are still playing in something I have organised you are still slagging me off and making unwarranted accusations.

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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by bbogensc » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:01 pm

Sure, I'm just an evil person and just treat me like a piece of dirt personally attacking me over and over again with no point as far as I can tell. I spend many hours each week organizing the most popular FOGII campaign, which is nearly as popular as your entire sponsored league, and to be treated like this is just outrageous. You should be ashamed of yourself. I am ashamed for you and won't be in touch with you further.

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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by klayeckles » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:05 am

bbogensc wrote:Sure, I'm just an evil person and just treat me like a piece of dirt personally attacking me over and over again with no point as far as I can tell. I spend many hours each week organizing the most popular FOGII campaign, which is nearly as popular as your entire sponsored league, and to be treated like this is just outrageous. You should be ashamed of yourself. I am ashamed for you and won't be in touch with you further.

bbog.... seems you're pretty angry over this, and have been for a while
couple thoughts.
we're not playing for money.
most players are having a great time, and are honorable.
the staff are doing their damnedest to bring us a game experience second to none. of course that means pleasing a couple hundred folk
you certainly have a passion for the game and are an outstanding player...one of the best.
the community is relatively small...some players here have faced each other for nearly 10 years going back to FOG 1.
So you've got some beefs...i do too, like the elected official that represents me is a ego maniac...that's a real problem. we come to this forum to have some fun, and make some friends--this discussion thread doesn't cover any of that. How about just facing the fact that the system might not be perfect (like everything else on the planet), and sitting back and enjoying it despite the issues we all might have. if once in 50 games we lose because someone rolled the dice a second time...hey i'm willing to shake my head and live with it, and i bet it won't impact our world standings in FOG...and if it does...who is this klayeckles and bbogensc, and all the rest anyway? :roll:

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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by Jagger2002 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:02 pm

I am relatively new to FOG2 and have played around 20 or so multiplayer games now. In all those games, only once have I had the hackles rise up on the back of my neck. My thoughts were that I would play the guy once more and if I got that vague feeling again, I wouldn't play him again. However I have played a lot more AI than multi-player and I know anything can happen in combat. So things have to be pretty outrageous to raise my suspicions. Yet even then, outrageous results happen fairly often vs the AI, so who knows.

I have read of a program which matches uploads/downloads as the mechanism to spot potential redoing of turns. It seems fairly foolproof to me if actually monitored. But if we wanted to remove all doubt, would it not be effective if the matching upload/download program would simply notify the players if there is a mismatch of uploads/downloads? So if both players know, due to an automatic notification, that a turn has been reloaded, then the reloading player should have a darn good reason for the reload. And undoubtedly, it is possible to have to reload due to computer or internet technical reasons. And once or twice, a newbie might forgot that they need to save a turn if they open to view a turn. However it shouldn't be a consistent problem and particularly, the reload should not be matched with outstanding combat results. So with players automatically notified of a reloaded turn, then the players themselves could self police the whole issue of reloading without having to rely on a vague feeling that something funny might be going on.

PS: Also when in multiplayer, the game should notify the player if they attempt to exit the game without saving that it will count as a reload. That would remind the newbie they need to save before exiting and provide assistance to any elderly players suffering from a senior moment.

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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:12 am

Jagger2002 wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:02 pm
I am relatively new to FOG2 and have played around 20 or so multiplayer games now. In all those games, only once have I had the hackles rise up on the back of my neck. My thoughts were that I would play the guy once more and if I got that vague feeling again, I wouldn't play him again. However I have played a lot more AI than multi-player and I know anything can happen in combat. So things have to be pretty outrageous to raise my suspicions. Yet even then, outrageous results happen fairly often vs the AI, so who knows.

I have read of a program which matches uploads/downloads as the mechanism to spot potential redoing of turns. It seems fairly foolproof to me if actually monitored. But if we wanted to remove all doubt, would it not be effective if the matching upload/download program would simply notify the players if there is a mismatch of uploads/downloads? So if both players know, due to an automatic notification, that a turn has been reloaded, then the reloading player should have a darn good reason for the reload. And undoubtedly, it is possible to have to reload due to computer or internet technical reasons. And once or twice, a newbie might forgot that they need to save a turn if they open to view a turn. However it shouldn't be a consistent problem and particularly, the reload should not be matched with outstanding combat results. So with players automatically notified of a reloaded turn, then the players themselves could self police the whole issue of reloading without having to rely on a vague feeling that something funny might be going on.

PS: Also when in multiplayer, the game should notify the player if they attempt to exit the game without saving that it will count as a reload. That would remind the newbie they need to save before exiting and provide assistance to any elderly players suffering from a senior moment.
I will draw this to the attention of the relevant folk at Slitherine.
PS: Also when in multiplayer, the game should notify the player if they attempt to exit the game without saving that it will count as a reload. That would remind the newbie they need to save before exiting and provide assistance to any elderly players suffering from a senior moment.
Not sure this is necessary, as the only way you can exit without the game being saved or conceded is to deliberately crash the program using the task manager or other means. You can't simply close the program normally when in MP mode.
Richard Bodley Scott

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NikiforosFokas
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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by NikiforosFokas » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:06 am

Wouldnt be possible for the server to autosave after a specific amount of time (maybe after 2 minutes) or after a specific amount of moves? I do not know much about technical issues (in fact I know nothing) but i think if it is possible will solve the problem of re-load the turn forever.
For Byzantium!!

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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:21 pm

It seems very certain now that we are not going to reach the magic number of 64 players this year. The numbers joining are well down from 2018 and are likely to be around 40. What this means is that less than half the players who have entered are likely to get a first round match because there are going to be a lot of first round byes. So what I can do is draw the first and second round pairings at the same time and allow 3 weeks for all these matches to be completed. The reason I want to do this is that I am concerned that some players might drift away from the tournament if they do not get a match on April 1st.

To explain more clearly how this would work we can use the current number of entrants, which is 38, as an illustration. In order to get 32 players playing in the 2nd round (in KO tournaments the sequence of players participating in each round has to go 64-32-16-8-4-2), there would have to be 6 first round matches (involving 12 players) leaving 26 players with byes. The 6 winners are added to the 26 byes to make 32. So what I would do if I still had 38 players on Friday is to draw out 6 first round matches first. Then, I would draw out 13 second round matches from the remaining 26 players so those players could start their matches at the same time as the first round matches. Everybody will be playing at the start. The final part of the second round draw would see me draw the last 3 matches from the 6 first round pairings (e.g. winner of Match 3 will play winner of Match 6 and so on).

For this to work I will need an even number of participants so from now on I am going to allow new players to register in 2's. so a new player signing up now will be a reserve unless a second player signs up. Then they will both be able to enter and the procedure starts again.

All this probably seems unnecessarily complicated, but I think it will work OK - and it will ensure everybody has a match from the outset. :wink:

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Re: Tournament results . . .

Post by devoncop » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:49 am

Klay v Pantherboy 😂😂😂😂

Love it. Barcelona v Real Madrid 1st Round. :D

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Re: Tournament results . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:38 am

devoncop wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:49 am
Klay v Pantherboy 😂😂😂😂

Love it. Barcelona v Real Madrid 1st Round. :D
Yes, I thought something like that might happen when most of the top-rated players avoided being drawn in the first round. So there was pantherboy, klayeckles, ianiow, dkalenda, Triarii, harveylh and CheAhn all waiting to be drawn out in the second round matches. :wink:

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Re: The Discussion thread . . .

Post by devoncop » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:45 pm

Nicely done.

Speaking on behalf of the mediocrities "more of that" please :-)

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