Principate Roman - 750

Omar · Post by **Omar** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:49 am

Currently assembling and painting my first FoG list. Wanted to submit it here, so I know if I am focusing on the right units.

IC
2xTC
Legionaries (8) - HF/Arm/Sup/Dr-Impact, Sk Swd
Legionaries (6) - HF/Arm/Sup/Dr-Impact, Sk Swd
Legionaries (6) - HF/Arm/Sup/Dr-Impact, Sk Swd
Auxiliary Foot (8) - MF/Arm/Av/Dr-Lt Sp, Swd
Auxiliary Cavalry (4) - Cav/Arm/Av/Dr-Lt Sp, Swd
Auxiliary Archers (8) - Mf/Pro/Av/Dr-Bow
Allied Archer (8) - LF/Un/Av/Un-Bow
Equites Sagittarii (4) - LH/Un/Av/Dr-Bow
Catafractarii (4) - Cav/Arm/Sup/Dr-Lance, Swd
Slingers/Javelinmen (6) - LF/Un/Av/Un-Sling/Javelin, Lt Sp

Not sure if I should go with the slingers or javelinmen. Same price either way. With the Auxiliary Foot I can use two units of 4 or one unit of 8. Guess it depends on what I am facing, but the bigger unit seems to work better for me.

I was told that the strength of this army was in the Legionaries, so I brought plenty.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:26 am

750 points is an uncommon number - I don't remember why you chose that total.

On the scale of 1 to 5 of how much an army benefits from an IC, Principate is about a 1. Meaning I'd look at a TC (or even 2) instead.

Legionaries are certainly

, but 20 is not many for Romans.

I think general wisdom is that a nimble player can use these to best advantage in 4s, although if throwing a TC in the front rank a schwerpunkt BG of 6 or even 8 crack troops makes the best use of rerolls.

I suggest 2x4 Auxilia for the same reason. They could operate independently if needed since armoured makes them fairly tough - they resist archery, often have the armour POA and take 2 bases to autobreak, but two of them brigaded together give more tactical options against their target.

Same 2x4 point on the Aux archers, though I find the question is what the archers are going to do, and whether it's worth reducing the fighting line to include them. I tend to think having more regular Auxilia will be more generally useful.

Opinions differ on using mounted. One thing to note is that a lone BG of Equites Sagittarii doubles its odds of forcing a CT on an average target by shooting with 6 rather than 4 bases.

Slings expect to shoot and have the same range as mounted bows, which is handy. Javelins take risks in getting close enough to shoot, and are more for attacking other LF. I'd probably take a BG of 4 Slingers, and a second BG of Poor Slingers (still good for some utility purposes) for the same cost.

Cheers,

Mike

Fulgrim · Post by **Fulgrim** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:10 am

I used the Principates a while ago at an open tournament. I found them pretty good but my list was a bit different..

I started out with an IC what got convinced from arguments on this board to pick TC and going for a init of 0. So i did. I can say that 4 TC are is a good thing for this army, the legiones+TC beat up basically anything sent at them, including knights, (poor) pikes and elephants. They never got fragmented and the few DISR (1-2 BG in 4 games) recoverded. In hindsight i cant see including an IC as remotly as effective as 2 mors TC:s where. Further, the quite expensive legionaries demands "filler" BGs imho - i took the aux in 2x4, the aux Bw in 2x4 (but their worth is questionable in ths army imo), 4 poor slinger and 4 poor javelinmen. Furher i used supporting archers in 3 out of 4 BG of legionaries. They are good at boosting BG size, little else though. I had no Cataphracts, but superior Cv. I had 13 BG:s in total at 800pts.

Omar · Post by **Omar** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:17 pm

I was under the impression that 750 was a fairly standard point level. Of course, that number does change a bit depending on who you ask, I suppose. 500pts seemed too small for our group, but 1000pts seemed too big. 750 sounded like the best of both, and like I said, I thought it was fairly common. What is, if that is not?

When I designed the list, I tried to go for a more rounded list, which is why I included the Auxiliary archers and such. I am maxed out with the Eq. Sag.. 4 is the most I can take.

I will look at going with 4 TC's rather than the 2TC and 1IC. We played one game a few months back (we are fairly slow with FoG.. DBA seems to be the current local favorite) and I ran with an IC and Byzantines, and was glad I did.. it helped out several times. I figured the same would apply here.

Should I get more Legionaries? Should I bring more Auxillary troops? Should I add artillery? Anything I should drop as being useless?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:37 pm

Most people in UK play 800pts for a standard game

Omar · Post by **Omar** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:49 am

Oh, ok. Like I said, I was under the impression that 750 was standard in the US. We are using a 3'x5' table, and didnt want to have too much stuff on it.

That being said, I will modify the list for 800pts and repost it.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:11 am

800 points is the 15mm singles standard in the U.S., though 600 or 650 seems popular for 25mm, 1000 is normal doubles, and some people like the heft of 900 points for singles. That's on a 6x4 table. Nothing wrong with lower totals for smaller tables.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:16 am

Omar wrote:Oh, ok. Like I said, I was under the impression that 750 was standard in the US. We are using a 3'x5' table, and didnt want to have too much stuff on it.

That being said, I will modify the list for 800pts and repost it.

We play on 6x4. I think, of the competitions I know in UK, the only one on 5x3 plays 650pts

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:00 pm

When I designed the list, I tried to go for a more rounded list, which is why I included the Auxiliary archers and such.

It can be a mistake trying to include a "bit of everything" in an army list, as this often means the army doesn't do anything well. Think about what purpose each part of your army is going to serve.
Personally I'd drop the archers and the lancer cavalry and go for more legionaries. I think the archers could be useful as rear support if you take Average legionaries though.

Regarding points levels, we play 700 points on a 5' wide table as we found that with 800 points we weren't getting games completed in a reasonable time.

Omar · Post by **Omar** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:13 pm

I will post all of what I own later on, see if I can make something worthwhile out of it. To be honest, I picked up this army because I like the period and figured it would make for a good FoG army. As it turns out, if I end up having to buy more stuff to make it playable in FoG, I probably wont bother.. but focus on my Byzantines, who I think I can do more with (and can certainly buy more if I need to, as I have not started working on them).

Its unfortunate that a well rounded army would suffer like that. I might look at adding the archers to the legionaries. Just finished painting them all last night (just need to highlight and seal them), so if they never saw table time I would be a bit miffed..

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:18 pm

Well I wouldn't worry too much about what will make a good army. If they are the figures you've got, get them painted and play with them and see what you think. You can add more later if you want then. It's much better to learn by playing games and finding what armies fit your playing style, rather than asking on here and getting lots of (often conflicting) advice.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:14 pm

Omar wrote:Its unfortunate that a well rounded army would suffer like that.

Could, not would - if its truly well-rounded (i.e., effectively combined arms) then it can work well under the player who knows how to coordinate it to use all its strengths and cover its weaknesses. Toolkit armies can be versatile because they have something for every situation, though maybe not a lot of it, maybe not enough, and maybe too far away to get where they need to be in time. It's also easier to make mistakes.

Armies with fewer troop types tend to be simpler to handle. The Principate can field a range of armies from the fairly homogeneous to the quite varied, particularly when you take allies.

Omar · Post by **Omar** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:12 am

Good points, I am just going to put it together and play against my friend, who also takes a "the hell with 'effective' lets play and have fun" attitude.

What I own currently:
26 Legionaries
8 Aux Foot
6 Aux Cav
8 Aux Archers
12 Allied Archers (so I can field some with the Legionaries.. though I am not sure how historically accurate that is)
2 Ballista
4 Numidian Cav
4 Eq. Sag (actually, a steppe horse archer LH model.. but its all I could find)
4 Contarii/Catafractarii
8 Slingers
8 Javelinmen
4 Commanders (1 horse, 3 foot)

Somehow, between January and now I lost 6 bases of Legionaries. Guess I am buying more there.

Any suggestions on what I should add to fill it out? I am probably ordering again in a few months anyway.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:44 am

Based on your format and list, the following OB should be fun and have a good Roman feel - built around tough legionaries with enough solid supports to give you some tactical tools. I've added some doctrinal notes of the kind I usually type into a text box in the spreadsheet.

Principate Order of Battle - 800pts

4xTC. 13 BGs (Don't need an IC with all the drilled and armoured troops, and superiors almost rally themselves! In addition, for flavor I like all TCs as fitting a theme of Roman reliance on perspiration rather than inspiration, and on drill, discipline and low level leadership rather than the brilliance or even competence of generals.)

LEGIONS:

Legionaries ( 8 ) - HF/Arm/Av/Dr-Impact, Sk Swd @80 (+TC)
Legionaries (6) - HF/Arm/Sup/Dr-Impact, Sk Swd @84
+ (3) LF/Un/Sup/Bow @ 18
Legionaries (4) - HF/Arm/Sup/Dr-Impact, Sk Swd @56
+ (2) LF/Un/Sup/Bow @ 12
Legionaries (4) - HF/Arm/Sup/Dr-Impact, Sk Swd @56
+ (2) LF/Un/Sup/Bow @ 12

Rear support archers costing 6 are efficient for the sup Legionaries who cost 14, aiding if charged by mounted but more importantly replacing 2nd rank losses and raising breakpoint (the small BGs need to run out of legionaries to autobreak). The large Average Legionary BG is normally in the main battle line with a TC dedicated to fighting in the front rank (and supported as described below). A second TC can lead the 6s, another one the MF or the horse, and the last is a spare and bolsterer.

AUXILIA:

Auxiliary Foot (4) - MF/Arm/Av/Dr-Lt Sp, Swd @36
Auxiliary Foot (4) - MF/Arm/Av/Dr-Lt Sp, Swd @36
Auxiliary Archers (4) - Mf/Pro/Av/Dr-Bow @28

Auxilia foot either paired together (divisible 8 or double team) or separately for terrain, covering a flank, tactically aiding the cavalry, or using mobility to gain flank threat/charge positions. The archers throw 3 dice so even shooting alone they can be useful for CTs, but typically start in rear support of the Avg Legionaries (with their TC that's a +2 on their cohesion tests!) or other auxilia foot.

Catafractarii (4) - Cav/Arm/Sup/Dr-Lance, Swd @68

You want fun, so take these guys. They can start out in reserve rear supporting the veterans and then move to where they are needed, such as tucked in at the end of the line to intercept threatening enemy while also rear supporting, or exploiting a gap in the middle. If combined with the other Cav they provide a medium-weight mounted strike force.

Auxiliary Cavalry (4) - Cav/Arm/Sup/Dr-Lt Sp, Swd@68

Superior so they can be played much like the Catafractarii or grouped with them or go skirmisher hunting with the LH (though for that role I'd take the Numidians instead for the Impact POA). They can also skirmish, which can be useful.

Skirmishers:

Equites Sagittarii (4) - LH/Un/Av/Dr-Bow @32 - for utility, converged shooting, screening, and opportunites
Allied Archer (6) - LF/Un/Av/Un-Bow @30 - these are intended to screen, shoot, taunt - normal LF stuff
Slingers (4) - LF/Un/Poor/Un-Sling @8 - for utility - their job is to not die
Slingers (4) - LF/Un/Poor/Un-Sling @8 - ditto

Proposed Order of March is standard - screen first, MF last, battle line in Q2 with an option to shift the weighting on Q3 (not tripping myself up with being over clever):

Q1 All the light troops
Q2 Legio 8 and both 4s
Q3 Legio 6, Catafractarii and Aux Cavalry
Q4 Remaining Auxiliaries

Of course there are lots of other ways to play this army, including some OBs with useful allies.

Omar · Post by **Omar** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:49 am

Thank you, that is incredibly helpful!

MadBanker · Post by **MadBanker** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:36 am

MikeK, if the list is early period then you can't have more than 4 sup bases of mounted. To have 8 sup bases the list needs to be towards the end of the period. Mind you, I don't think it changes anything because I'm prety sure all the listed troop types are legal for the end of period.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:49 am

Thanks. I'll drop early from the title.

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:15 am

Personally I think the 4 horse archers are too small a force to do anything useful. If taking any LH I'd go for the Numidian as well. So have all 8 or none at all.
Also I think Auxiliary cavalry are better in this army than lancers. Light Spear mounted are more versatile than lancers as they can evade and are better in terrain. And you can't have 2 BGs of 4 superiors as pointed out so go for a BG of 6 Average Auxiliary cavalry.

Fulgrim · Post by **Fulgrim** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:10 am

I do (and did) find bow-LH in 4:s more useful. with 4" range you can keep distance while herassing the enemy (and of course luring them into bad situations). Jav-LH are much more vulourable imho. The short range is, well, very short! And for +POA in impact, sure but none of them have POA:s in melee - and with that few LH in total you wont charge anyone wiht exept where you have an advantage (flank, rear, LF) anyways.

Teamed with the aux bow you will get deasent shooting die.

BTW: with 4TC, 4 Cv, 4 LH/Bow and the cataphracts you are at +0 in init which is good for this army - a good chance to get the first move. With extra LH-Jav you will get +1 which is pointless.