Looking for an army

[ravenflight]

Hi Guys,

I want to build an army. Please help me choose.

It will:

All be undrilled
up to 16 bases (more is a possibility) of Cavalry, Armoured, Superior, Bow, Sword.
>24 bases of 1/2 HF or MF Armoured or Protected (preference to MF Armoured), Average, Heavy Weapon; 1/2 MF Armoured or Protected (preference to Armoured) Bow and preferably Swordsmen.
Preferably no other compulsory troops, but if they are let me know the army so I can look into it.
Preferably optional troops that are MF Offensive Spearmen (Protected or Armoured, definitely average).

The reason I want this:

It's kinda what I think the Later Samurai armies should be, and the current one sucks so badly that a friend who bought it still hasn't painted it. I think the above would be a better more competitive army. I'm happy to take "Late Medieval Upper Voltan Martians" (if that's what the above will be) and dress them in Japanese clothes and think to myself I'm running Samurai.

Let me know if there is any beastie that matches the above.

[philqw78]

Assuming you have checked EotD I Think the closest you will get is Ottoman

Plenty of Undrilled S Cv Bow Sword
Janissaries Prot Bw sw (Drilled and S tho)
Some HW undrilled
6 bases of LH and some LF (Emishi?)
Also some superior MF Impact Foot Prot Sw

[ravenflight]

Assuming you have checked EotD I Think the closest you will get is Ottoman

Plenty of Undrilled S Cv Bow Sword
Janissaries Prot Bw sw (Drilled and S tho)
Some HW undrilled
6 bases of LH and some LF (Emishi?)
Also some superior MF Impact Foot Prot Sw

Actually, a totally different bent on the Japanese, but I think it has potential. Could even use the Kapu Khalqi as 'Daimyo's guard. The Drilled Jannissaries are a bit 'wrong' IMHO, but I'll certainly have a tinker and see what I can come up with.

[Polkovnik]

You get half and half HF Heavy Weapon / Crossbow (not bow I'm afraid) in medieval Swedish and Danish, but their mounted would be Knights.

Don't you get some in the Chinese armies with half and half MF HW / bow or Crossbow ?

[philqw78]

If you wanted to dispense with the cavalry a Scots Continental could work. Lots of Av, Undrilled, Protected, MF, LBow, Sw, and Super or Av, Armd or HA, Undrilled HF HW.

One of the early Koreans may work as they have the MF mixed BG with HW/Bow early on and I think are undrilled (lots of poor followers types as well). Can't remember the numbers on cavalry, though they get undrilled nomads with Bw Sw, unfortunately you may have to take a BG catafracts, but not sure.

[ravenflight]

You get half and half HF Heavy Weapon / Crossbow (not bow I'm afraid) in medieval Swedish and Danish, but their mounted would be Knights.

Don't you get some in the Chinese armies with half and half MF HW / bow or Crossbow ?

Hi Polkovnik,

I did think of the Medieval Danes, but I can't see the Samurai as Knights I'm afraid. Even in the late late period with the Yari, it wasn't a knightly charge.

That said, I have been just looking at the Moldavian and Wallacian list, and the Bow* Light Spear Sword looks really good for mounted Samurai. The mix of weapons (Bow, Yari, Naginata, Katana etc) at impact I can cope with giving them a 'tie breaker'. There are SOME HF HW (only 6 - which isn't really enough, but I'll accept it) and handgunners too, which in the late Medieval period is probably not inaccurate. No knights are compulsory and what's the difference between a Walacian peasant and a Japanese peasant?

I think the 'other archers' is a little 'poor' for a Japanese army, but beggers can't be choosers.

What does everyone else think?

I'd really be interested in some feedback from some people knowledgeable in the period Japanese. I am fairly knowledgeable, but certainly not all knowing.

[ravenflight]

One of the early Koreans may work as they have the MF mixed BG with HW/Bow early on and I think are undrilled (lots of poor followers types as well). Can't remember the numbers on cavalry, though they get undrilled nomads with Bw Sw, unfortunately you may have to take a BG catafracts, but not sure.

Had a good look at the Koreans. Lots of their mounted is lancer, which is a pity. Some of it is even Cataphract

[eldiablito]

You get half and half HF Heavy Weapon / Crossbow (not bow I'm afraid) in medieval Swedish and Danish, but their mounted would be Knights.

Don't you get some in the Chinese armies with half and half MF HW / bow or Crossbow ?

Hi Polkovnik,

I did think of the Medieval Danes, but I can't see the Samurai as Knights I'm afraid. Even in the late late period with the Yari, it wasn't a knightly charge.

That said, I have been just looking at the Moldavian and Wallacian list, and the Bow* Light Spear Sword looks really good for mounted Samurai. The mix of weapons (Bow, Yari, Naginata, Katana etc) at impact I can cope with giving them a 'tie breaker'. There are SOME HF HW (only 6 - which isn't really enough, but I'll accept it) and handgunners too, which in the late Medieval period is probably not inaccurate. No knights are compulsory and what's the difference between a Walacian peasant and a Japanese peasant?

I think the 'other archers' is a little 'poor' for a Japanese army, but beggers can't be choosers.

What does everyone else think?

I'd really be interested in some feedback from some people knowledgeable in the period Japanese. I am fairly knowledgeable, but certainly not all knowing.

I have a friend who knows more about Feudal Japan than I. He told me an anecdote about how some samurai would cut the straps to their ally's saddle so that the "friend" would fall off the horse and get to the battle too late and miss out on all the glory. This sounds a bit impetuous to me. Also, if you look at the interactions between foot to mounted in Feudal Japan, doesn't this reflect the value of a knight?

Again, I'm not an expert. But if you brought Japanese models with the Medieval Danes army list. I'd give you a game.

As a final thought, you could always construct a new army list and play it in the fantasy version. Just think of super-ninjas and magician monks with their magical scrolls! Perhaps even add in some Oni!

[ravenflight]

I have a friend who knows more about Feudal Japan than I. He told me an anecdote about how some samurai would cut the straps to their ally's saddle so that the "friend" would fall off the horse and get to the battle too late and miss out on all the glory. This sounds a bit impetuous to me. Also, if you look at the interactions between foot to mounted in Feudal Japan, doesn't this reflect the value of a knight?

Again, I'm not an expert. But if you brought Japanese models with the Medieval Danes army list. I'd give you a game.

As a final thought, you could always construct a new army list and play it in the fantasy version. Just think of super-ninjas and magician monks with their magical scrolls! Perhaps even add in some Oni!

Thanks.

I'm not opposed to playing a list that I create myself, but the trouble is that people won't accept it in a comp, which is where the vast majority of my gaming comes from. Basically, the list 'as is' but with 'Armoured Heavy Weapon/Armoured Bow Sword' is pretty much how I'd like to run it, but to pay an extra point for the privilege of not getting support shooting is just crazy, and makes a list that is already a bit smelly stink beyond comprehension.

But yes, in friendly games I could do whatever... and you might be right about 'Knights' especially seeing I don't have to 'max them out' and it's not like Medieval Danes are taking the world by storm (and I like the list too - being a Viking/Post Viking Medieval Danish player as it stands)

[grahambriggs]

Not got the books with me but doesn't Han chinese get MF half HW half crossbow and mounterd that are crossbow sword. Drilled but nit sure if there are undrilled options for some other states that have undrilled.

[hazelbark]

There are lots of troops in the Empires Dragon book that are like this.

Most pre-900 Chinese are bow/sword cavalry

Early T'ang

Then maybe Jin

Various qin and early chinese

Armoured Bow is a very hard thing to find and you basically won't.

[ShrubMiK]

Indeed. I always assumed that the bowmen were being generally marked down an armour class for their limited shield usage. MAybe the Samurai of legend had a third arm

[eldiablito]

You mean like the armoured crossbowmen that the Danes have in their back rank? Or how about all those mounted, armoured crossbowmen that the Medieval Danes, Germans and a few other countries have access to?

I think the armour classification might be a general rule, but would be altered to make historical match-ups reflect the troops' qualities. So, making Samurai armoured isn't impossible.

[hazelbark]

You mean like the armoured crossbowmen that the Danes have in their back rank? Or how about all those mounted, armoured crossbowmen that the Medieval Danes, Germans and a few other countries have access to?

I think the armour classification might be a general rule, but would be altered to make historical match-ups reflect the troops' qualities. So, making Samurai armoured isn't impossible.

Well mounted are different. There are very few armoured foot bow units in general.

I would have liked a real samurai expert to work on the lists, I agree.

I presume making too much samuari foot armoured would potentially weaken the samurai bow fire against each other. The challenge of a list liek Samurai there historical combat was against very similiar troops. SO when you have a system that allows them to fight non historical foes you get very odd effects. Like an older rule system made the Samurai bow fire like English longbow and suddenly that rule set, the samurari were the great option to fight fully armoured late medieval knights, which also seemed odd.

The question is what gradings would make Samurai civil wars more historical and more interesting. Then is there a minor kludge from that to make them more viable against more armies.

[ravenflight]

Indeed. I always assumed that the bowmen were being generally marked down an armour class for their limited shield usage. MAybe the Samurai of legend had a third arm

I see the ';)' but I wonder at the comment. Look at Swiss, who are generally without ANYTHING and get 'protected', or the Early Republican Romans who get 'armoured' because of a bloody bronze pectoral! The armour classification is pretty arbitrary. I would think that the Samurai would DEFINITELY be 'armoured' and probably enough of the Ashigaru could be classified just as armoured as many other armies 'armoured' troops. Hell, look at Alexander's Companions. No shield there - less armour than an Ashigaru and are considered armoured vs a same period Hoplite who has a metal armour and/or shield where-ever you can see it.

[ravenflight]

I presume making too much samuari foot armoured would potentially weaken the samurai bow fire against each other.

I don't understand this 'anti-armoured Bushi' thing. They can already be all armoured!

[hazelbark]

I presume making too much samuari foot armoured would potentially weaken the samurai bow fire against each other.

I don't understand this 'anti-armoured Bushi' thing. They can already be all armoured!

Ahh I was going from memory and not looking at list.

[grahambriggs]

Indeed. I always assumed that the bowmen were being generally marked down an armour class for their limited shield usage. MAybe the Samurai of legend had a third arm

I see the ';)' but I wonder at the comment. Look at Swiss, who are generally without ANYTHING and get 'protected', or the Early Republican Romans who get 'armoured' because of a bloody bronze pectoral! The armour classification is pretty arbitrary. I would think that the Samurai would DEFINITELY be 'armoured' and probably enough of the Ashigaru could be classified just as armoured as many other armies 'armoured' troops. Hell, look at Alexander's Companions. No shield there - less armour than an Ashigaru and are considered armoured vs a same period Hoplite who has a metal armour and/or shield where-ever you can see it.

Here is the armour that the Swiss wore in the Zurich museam. Did you want these guys to be unprotected?

http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?feat ... wiss01.jpg

[ravenflight]

SOME wore that, the vast majority didn't... which is why I said 'generally'. Sure, the front rankers would have been more heavily armoured than the rear rankers, but that is only effective in melee, and only until you start losing your front ranks.

Besides which, I'm not saying what they should be and what they shouldn't be, what I'm saying is that the option of 'Armoured' for Samurai and Ashigaru groups is reasonable considering Swiss get protected.

A swiss phalanx with maybe 50% of their number with armour as per your picture and the rest totally unarmoured gets protected. Samurai in ō-yoroi mixed in with Ashigaru with less complete armour would, if you used the same rationale, be Armoured.

[grahambriggs]

I suspect the "pike are protected" thing is less to do with evidence and more game balance. Otherwise a better representation of the Swiss might be armoured front ranks, unprotected rear ranks.

I don't know the Japanese ists too well, though am told that those who do have concerns about them. However, for the Muromachi armour can be taken for the Bushi heavy weapon types and the offensive spear. And that seems a sensible option to take. Which bits of the lists don't work for you?