Slitherine

Ok, I've read what others have said, and have come up with this:



I think it's another of my famous (hard to beat, but hard to win with) designs. Design philosophy - naturally, everything revolves around what you're fighting, but you've got the Sherdan to smash through the enemy foot (hopefully) and the Chariotry to shoot up the rest of their army while this is in progress. The Egyptian foot is only there as a pseudo light infantry. You've got to have them, and they are only 120 points, so can act as rear support or go into rough terrain to give some light foot a hard time (hopefully).

I really am sure that this is a comp laughing stock, but it might be fun.

Tell me what you think... however if you're going to say something please back it up with 'I'd take x and get rid of y'. There is no much point in saying 'Egyptian infantry in 8's would be better... because I'd have to find the points for that, so by building them up to 8's would reduce something else (probably the Sherdan, which are designed to make it harder to disrupt with shooting by being in 10s).

If this is the sort of configuration you want to run look at Lybian Egyptian because the IF can be superior.

Martin

marty wrote:If this is the sort of configuration you want to run look at Lybian Egyptian because the IF can be superior.

Martin

Yeah, I half noted that. I mean I'd noted it prior but had forgotten it... trouble is it's NOT NKE is it?

There is something about NKE. Don't ask me to explain it.

But you're probably right.

ravenflight wrote:

marty wrote:If this is the sort of configuration you want to run look at Lybian Egyptian because the IF can be superior.
Martin

Yeah, I half noted that. I mean I'd noted it prior but had forgotten it... trouble is it's NOT NKE is it?
There is something about NKE. Don't ask me to explain it.
But you're probably right.

Absolutely. When I brought Maya to the US Open at least 3 well meaning helpful souls asked me why i wasn't smarter and brought Aztecs.
And all I could lamely answer was 'I like Maya.'

Obviously this all comes down to the chariots. What are they good against? Do they get a plus against anything? At 1 fig deep they are not the most maneuverable. And of course they stink in melee, like all chariots since the dawn of Ancients gaming.
I confess I dont get that.
Someone mentioned that they should get a plus in melee. But since the birth of WRG, and even in the various Warhammer incarnations, chariots have always been an impact troop that bogs down and becomes useless in melee, as opposed to cavalry.
Why is it worse to fight from an elevated platform, where you can move, than from a horse?

For what it's worth, Rameses II isn't allowed to have Sherden (by 13 years). You could always go with Rameses III who probably is the Pharoah who initially recruited large number of Sea People mercenaries.

As far as the list, I don't think you need an IC (and not sure either Rameses really qualifies as one). I would look at downgrading the IC to either an FC or a fourth TC. If you go with an FC, it might be worthwhile taking hime as a sub so he can lead a flank march if the situation justifies it. You could also convert one or two of the Egyptian chariots to Syrian/Canaanite undrilled for a few more points and add at least one more BG to your army. 11 feels OK for 800 point while 10 seems a bit low. One thing to think about is how you expect to use the commanders in terms of the restrictions in the size of battle lines each grade can command. I don't think you need an IC to move 6 BGs together but an FC to move 4 might well be worthwhile.

I have an NKE army but haven't run them at all in V2 and only used them a few times in V1.

Dave Ruddock posted an interesting V1 battle report where the NKE worked well for him and Simon has also posted some thoughts on how to make the army work but I'm not able to find either of them currently with the limited search functionality on the forums.

Chris

Finally found the old thread I was looking for at NKE Tips using Google. Looks like the current forum search is limited to within the last 12 months.

Chris

At 10 BGs the army is too small. 11 would be fragile; 12 probably sensible. You've spent 185 points on generals. What are they all going to be doing? The chariots won't need much in the way of generals - drilled superior is pretty surviveable. The egyptian foot are drilled. If they get into serious action do you thinlk the generals will save them? the Sherden will need one. On the other hand an FC sub general is nice for flank marches and this is a good army to flank march chariots with.

Why two blocks of Sherden? They may smash through enemy foot true but that's not too likely. However the threat of that would still be there with one block. I'd also suggest the superior Nubian archer LF would be good value with this design. They shoot as well as chariots - albeit from closer - so for 48 points you get the same shooting impact as the chariots. I do like the MF archers in 8s so would reduce the generals and sherden to afford it.

So my suggested list:

CiC TC plus subs TC, FC: 110
1x6 Close fighters: 42
1x12 Sherden: 84
1x8 sup Nubian LF: 48
3x6 Egyptian archers: 108
8 Egyptian archers: 48
5x4 chariots: 360

The idea would be: Sherden in the centre to focus the enemy there. 2x2 Egyptian archers to each flank. A chariot unit beween the sherden and the archer flanks. More chariots on the extreme flanks. LF in front of the enemy main thrust to delay. Option to flank march. The enemy will want to concentrate their forces to avoid being shot down piecemeal or picked off by the Sherden. But this will mean that one of your bow heavy, manouverable flanks will be free to operate against their flank.

batesmotel wrote:and not sure either Rameses really qualifies as one

Are you kidding me? Ramses was incredible. Look at all the monuments he made to prove it. He was a GOD, and he knew it!

Maybe for Rameses IC stands for "Inspired Communicator"; that's also part of being a good general although that probably relates more to on the spot haranguing rather than "can you wait a few years whilst I knock up a few pylons" or "look at me, I get played by Yul Brynner in a Cecil B deMille production in a few millennia" .

Ok second version of Neo New Kingdom Egyptian (Lybian Egyptian obviously)

grahambriggs wrote:At 10 BGs the army is too small. 11 would be fragile; 12 probably sensible. You've spent 185 points on generals. What are they all going to be doing? The chariots won't need much in the way of generals - drilled superior is pretty surviveable. The egyptian foot are drilled. If they get into serious action do you thinlk the generals will save them? the Sherden will need one. On the other hand an FC sub general is nice for flank marches and this is a good army to flank march chariots with.

Why two blocks of Sherden? They may smash through enemy foot true but that's not too likely. However the threat of that would still be there with one block. I'd also suggest the superior Nubian archer LF would be good value with this design. They shoot as well as chariots - albeit from closer - so for 48 points you get the same shooting impact as the chariots. I do like the MF archers in 8s so would reduce the generals and sherden to afford it.

So my suggested list:

CiC TC plus subs TC, FC: 110
1x6 Close fighters: 42
1x12 Sherden: 84
1x8 sup Nubian LF: 48
3x6 Egyptian archers: 108
8 Egyptian archers: 48
5x4 chariots: 360

The idea would be: Sherden in the centre to focus the enemy there. 2x2 Egyptian archers to each flank. A chariot unit beween the sherden and the archer flanks. More chariots on the extreme flanks. LF in front of the enemy main thrust to delay. Option to flank march. The enemy will want to concentrate their forces to avoid being shot down piecemeal or picked off by the Sherden. But this will mean that one of your bow heavy, manouverable flanks will be free to operate against their flank.

I like your theory - and might play a game with this list just to see how it goes.

Vespasian28 wrote:Maybe for Rameses IC stands for "Inspired Communicator"; that's also part of being a good general although that probably relates more to on the spot haranguing rather than "can you wait a few years whilst I knock up a few pylons" or "look at me, I get played by Yul Brynner in a Cecil B deMille production in a few millennia" .

In fairness (and seriousness this time) I think IC can be a lot of things, but I certainly can't think of anyone more inspired than a deity! It really doesn't matter how good he was on the battlefield, his +s on the wargames table are purely 'troops listening to him' and I'm pretty sure the bulk of his army would have thought of him as a God.

ravenflight wrote:

Vespasian28 wrote:Maybe for Rameses IC stands for "Inspired Communicator"; that's also part of being a good general although that probably relates more to on the spot haranguing rather than "can you wait a few years whilst I knock up a few pylons" or "look at me, I get played by Yul Brynner in a Cecil B deMille production in a few millennia" .

In fairness (and seriousness this time) I think IC can be a lot of things, but I certainly can't think of anyone more inspired than a deity! It really doesn't matter how good he was on the battlefield, his +s on the wargames table are purely 'troops listening to him' and I'm pretty sure the bulk of his army would have thought of him as a God.

He was strategically-operationally-tactically surprised at Kadesh, but with most of his army destroyed or not yet arrived on the battlefield he rallied his army and fought the Hittites to a draw. That must count for something. I can't imagine recovering from disaster so dramatically with anything less than an IC. Whatever his strategic acumen Ramses must have been impressive in the fight. Is it any different on the tabletop with the separation of IC figure capability and a player's wits?

I agree it would be a risk to go in against disrupted. But that might be a call you have to make, take your opportunities when you can.

The advantage of LCh over H is that they can skirmish, so I would argue that to make the most of an army that has them in abundance you must be prepared to go that route when facing stuff that probably can't catch you. One rank only, but not half dice. So I imagine you'd be needing a few BGs together to have realistic hopes of results.

How well it can work in practice I have no idea...certainly I personally have rubbish results whenever I try to use LH in any numbers and I have no experience of LCh!

Hi Ravenflight
I Have a NKE and find that any army I/you have you will get good parts and bad parts weather its my Mongols,carthaginas or NKE its what you are up agianst that you have to plan for i have Never put a army list out until i know what i am fighting agaist .

I do find that egyptian bow are good agianst lt chariots and i have them in 8 which helps i place them on my flanks to stop lt chariots coming round . if the lt chariots want to stand of and have a shooting match then i would take my 8 bw over 4 chariots they can soak up more fire and harder to test(need 3 hits to test up agaist 2 hits for chariots ! and in melee we should be on evens and at 48pts per b.g up agaist 72 pts chariots .They move fast and are drilled which means i can bring them in on a flank if the en frontage is a lot small than mine .

But keep them well away from foot troops ! i usally field around 3 chariot b.g for a 700pts army ,and have 10 .b.g

that my pennies worth happy gaming ..

You could have the chariots as the centre of attention (I know you want to). They will need skirmishers (preferably LH, but LF would do) to add some shooting dice and could benefit from some bowmen acting as bait, i.e. give your enemy something to fight, which runs away an gets them to over extended (= happy fun time for evade and shoot types).
Average impact foot can do some damage if you're careful about who they fight (prey on the weak) and use your charoits to hold thier hands into the fight and deny strong opponents.

If the impact foot's charge is going to be the main event and the basket where most of your eggs go; they'll have to be tougher, so you'll need the superior option.

Hi Fluffy
wishful thinking about the Light horse we don't get any in this period and I don't think anyone else get any as well ,but you are right about the lt foot I always field them Nubian LF Bow they are a good B.g and having them in 8 bases is a must in my eyes .

grahambriggs wrote:At 10 BGs the army is too small. 11 would be fragile; 12 probably sensible. You've spent 185 points on generals. What are they all going to be doing? The chariots won't need much in the way of generals - drilled superior is pretty surviveable. The egyptian foot are drilled. If they get into serious action do you thinlk the generals will save them? the Sherden will need one. On the other hand an FC sub general is nice for flank marches and this is a good army to flank march chariots with.

Why two blocks of Sherden? They may smash through enemy foot true but that's not too likely. However the threat of that would still be there with one block. I'd also suggest the superior Nubian archer LF would be good value with this design. They shoot as well as chariots - albeit from closer - so for 48 points you get the same shooting impact as the chariots. I do like the MF archers in 8s so would reduce the generals and sherden to afford it.

So my suggested list:

CiC TC plus subs TC, FC: 110
1x6 Close fighters: 42
1x12 Sherden: 84
1x8 sup Nubian LF: 48
3x6 Egyptian archers: 108
8 Egyptian archers: 48
5x4 chariots: 360

Graham your 800pts army sounds a good one will have to give it a go some time ..Have you played this game before

I know, but LH would still be ideal though.
I'd take some of the LF in 4's (if possible) to fit into cracks, which they'll probably end up needing to. More or less half the BG's (so a third of the bases).

That's fine but you can't have NKE LF in 4 at all and I think you will find that most armies at this time have to have them in 6 min, and having them in 4 is a risk for me as they are likely to get charged by EN LF. Or out shot by them . so 6-8 are good for me
happy gaming DK