Early Successor

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richafricanus
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Early Successor

Post by richafricanus » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:44 pm

I can't decide what the main feature of this army needs to be. Is it the Pike, the Elephants, swarms of Thracians? Later Macedonian has more Superior pike, but not elephants and Thracians.

I had a go at an 800 point list.

4 TCs
12 Superior Pike
8 Avg Pike
8 Avg Pike
8 Avg Pike
8 Thracians Heavy Weapon
8 Thorakitai Armoured Off Sp
4 Superior HC Lance
6 Superior LF Bow
6 Avg LF JLS
4 Avg LH JLS
4 Avg LH JLS
2 Elephants
2 Elephants

13 BGs. Lots of punch. Any thoughts?

ravenflight
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Re: Early Successor

Post by ravenflight » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:57 pm

richafricanus wrote:I can't decide what the main feature of this army needs to be. Is it the Pike, the Elephants, swarms of Thracians? Later Macedonian has more Superior pike, but not elephants and Thracians.

I had a go at an 800 point list.

4 TCs
12 Superior Pike
8 Avg Pike
8 Avg Pike
8 Avg Pike
8 Thracians Heavy Weapon
8 Thorakitai Armoured Off Sp
4 Superior HC Lance
6 Superior LF Bow
6 Avg LF JLS
4 Avg LH JLS
4 Avg LH JLS
2 Elephants
2 Elephants

13 BGs. Lots of punch. Any thoughts?
I don't like pike in 8's. too easy to knock off a POA. I'd go 10's but can't think of where to find the points.

hazelbark
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Re: Early Successor

Post by hazelbark » Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:50 pm

richafricanus wrote:I can't decide what the main feature of this army needs to be. Is it the Pike, the Elephants, swarms of Thracians? Later Macedonian has more Superior pike, but not elephants and Thracians.

8 Thracians Heavy Weapon
8 Thorakitai Armoured Off Sp
I don't think you will get enough out of 2 *s here. I am assuming the Thorakitai are MF.
I would lower one to a 6.

It depends how you plan to fight with this army. I view the power not in the MF. The MF especially with 1 EL are pretty good in terrain. Two 8s is a lot unless you are planning to separate them.

I get the power of 8s. But you are going to think you can fight more with these, therefore they will die more when you want people to fight your pike.

I think Pike based armies should be all about forcing the opponent to fight the pike. That is why I misplayed pike armies early on. I had too large a mounted wing. So the army wasn't enough Pike and my mounted would often win or lose before the pike got into play.

Vespasian28
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Re: Early Successor

Post by Vespasian28 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:07 pm

So the army wasn't enough Pike and my mounted would often win or lose before the pike got into play.
Exactly. I took on Early Successors at the weekend with Classical Indians and duffed up enough of his mounted and peripheral troops to win without the pike closing.

ravenflight
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Re: Early Successor

Post by ravenflight » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:38 pm

hazelbark wrote:
richafricanus wrote:I can't decide what the main feature of this army needs to be. Is it the Pike, the Elephants, swarms of Thracians? Later Macedonian has more Superior pike, but not elephants and Thracians.

8 Thracians Heavy Weapon
8 Thorakitai Armoured Off Sp
I don't think you will get enough out of 2 *s here. I am assuming the Thorakitai are MF.
I would lower one to a 6.

It depends how you plan to fight with this army. I view the power not in the MF. The MF especially with 1 EL are pretty good in terrain. Two 8s is a lot unless you are planning to separate them.

I get the power of 8s. But you are going to think you can fight more with these, therefore they will die more when you want people to fight your pike.

I think Pike based armies should be all about forcing the opponent to fight the pike. That is why I misplayed pike armies early on. I had too large a mounted wing. So the army wasn't enough Pike and my mounted would often win or lose before the pike got into play.
Excuse me Mr Bark,

Would you merge my comments to yours? Maybe drop one down to 6's, drop 1 elephant and up the pike to 10's?

grahambriggs
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Re: Early Successor

Post by grahambriggs » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:15 am

richafricanus wrote:I can't decide what the main feature of this army needs to be. Is it the Pike, the Elephants, swarms of Thracians? Later Macedonian has more Superior pike, but not elephants and Thracians.

I had a go at an 800 point list.

4 TCs
12 Superior Pike
8 Avg Pike
8 Avg Pike
8 Avg Pike
8 Thracians Heavy Weapon
8 Thorakitai Armoured Off Sp
4 Superior HC Lance
6 Superior LF Bow
6 Avg LF JLS
4 Avg LH JLS
4 Avg LH JLS
2 Elephants
2 Elephants

13 BGs. Lots of punch. Any thoughts?
I think you have two viable options: pike and friends or combined arms.

Pike and friends mean that the role of everyone else is to help the pike do what they do best - smack through the enemy in the open. So MF to contest terrain, elephants to help with the smack and LF and mounted to slow down the flank turning. For this I'd have the average pike in 12s and I'd be seeing if I could get it up to 4 12s of pike without compromising the support functions too badly (can't tell without playing the army).

Combined arms means that you try and win the battle by pick'n'mixing BGs into task forces that can take out chunks of a more homogeneous enemy. For example the cav can help the skirmishers beat enemy lights. pikes or elephants can protect the cav from enemy mounted. A pike block can help the MF bully enemy MF etc. With that style you tend to need pike in 8s as they're more manouverable (and will usually be good against what they hit so 4 dice of good factors are usually enough.

Combined arms will take a lot longer to learn, as everything needs to be in the right place. It can also take longer to win as you get things in the right place. Pike and friends is simpler to learn and gives a quicker win over a middling opponent but is vulnerable to the support troops being overwhelmed before the pike get in against a good opponent.

richafricanus
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Re: Early Successor

Post by richafricanus » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:44 pm

Thanks for all the advice. Let me try some of this out now...

mbsparta
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Re: Early Successor

Post by mbsparta » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:24 pm

Not enough mounted IMHO ... The Successor armies are so good because they have no real weaknesses. They had good heavy troops ... good mounted troops, good LF and a good shopping list for other BGs. Against historical opponents a Successor army is a tough opponent. Against some sort of fantasy opponent I'm not so sure ...

A good mix of superior cavalry and/or cataphracts, pike in 10s or 12s, a few elephants and a good assormtment of supporting troops gives an oppenent a tough army to try to beat.

The very best games of FoG I have had were Seleucid (or Pyrrhic) vs MRR. In fact FoG should showcase this sort of game, it brings out the very best in our game. Much better than the silly tournament nonsense that seems to dominate this game and this forum these days. When is the last time we saw anything FoG in Wargames Illustrated? But I am wandering off topic ... For that I appologize.

Mike B

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Re: Early Successor

Post by eldiablito » Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:19 am

I lose more than I win, however I think that Successor armies are really strong in open tourney environments. Those pike blocks and elephants are one of the best things to fight against knights. In V1, the bet way to fight against pike armies was mobile shooting armies. Today, I'm not so sure.

Now all that said, Romans do not fear your elephants and lancers as much as cavalry armies and their foot are arguably better against yours. So, that is a slightly period army that will cause you grief. I say slightly because if you look at later successor armies, your period opponents are Romans.

grahambriggs
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Re: Early Successor

Post by grahambriggs » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:41 am

mbsparta wrote: The very best games of FoG I have had were Seleucid (or Pyrrhic) vs MRR. In fact FoG should showcase this sort of game, it brings out the very best in our game. Much better than the silly tournament nonsense that seems to dominate this game and this forum these days. When is the last time we saw anything FoG in Wargames Illustrated? But I am wandering off topic ... For that I appologize.

Mike B
There is some showcasing done. For example, last month the Milton Keynes club ran "Campaign" which is in an enormous shopping centre. The idea being to show the hobby to the public by running a wide range of themed competitions. I took part in a "Campaigns of Hannibal" theme where I took the Seluecids of Anticus III.

I'm afraid it was in a silly tournament nonsense setting so I played a later Makedonian, another Seluekid, Attalid Pergamene and Gallic (I suppose they could have been Galatians in disguise!)

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Re: Early Successor

Post by hazelbark » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:24 pm

eldiablito wrote:I lose more than I win, however I think that Successor armies are really strong in open tourney environments. Those pike blocks and elephants are one of the best things to fight against knights. In V1, the bet way to fight against pike armies was mobile shooting armies. Today, I'm not so sure.
You can still be sure. mobile shooting armies pin the pike, kill their skirmishers and draw off their mounted. takes a very discipline Macedonian pike type to survive and its hard to win without taking risks.

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