Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

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CutEmUp
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Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by CutEmUp » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:01 pm

So I'm already painting for this army and am kind of working out how I want to design my infantry contingent for this army. The basic plan is to pin/occupy and envelop. I have two superior Cav units and two LH units as my enveloping force.....they can be split, but I prefer loading up on one side. The Infantry is the question. Initially I was thinking 3 skirmish units and four heavy foot, including various warband types and african vets, but now I'm wondering if I should take Campanians so that all most of heavy foot can be armored and add some medium foot for terrain. I might also throw in an element of medium foot. I also want to support this main infantry force with some elephants. Right now the list is

1x IC
2x TC
2x 6 African Vets (amd)
1x 6 Campanian Roman Style Foot (amd)
1x 8 Scutarii
2x 6 Javelinmen
1x 6 Balaerics
2x 2 Elephants
2x 4 Numidian cav
2x 4 Spanish/Gallic Cav (amd)
comes out to like seven-ninety-something

grahambriggs
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Re: Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by grahambriggs » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:44 am

Didn't the elephants all die coming over the alps? Surely they aren't allowed for Hannibal in Italy?

The problem with the HII version is that, being all good quality troops they are expensive so you don't get many of them. Add to that the fact that you need 2-3 ranks for many of them and it's not the widest army. I'd suggest you'll usually want to fight with your heavy foot in the gaps between difficult terrain so that you don't get swamped with numbers.

I'd definitely go with armoured HF where possible. When I've fought against this army the african vets are very tough so it's a joy if you see protected swordsmen next to them as they can be a weak point. I'd be thinking that four HF BGs is really the minimum to do the job. If you're putting your mounted on one flank you'll want to refuse the other; a LF BG can do that job. LF javelinmen would also be good for holding up the enemy in difficult going.

I'm always in two mind about single units of MF. In principle, I think it's not enough to hold most rough terrain areas. However, if you have none then enemy can just sweep through the brush far too quickly. Worth trying an 8 of WScutarii on the gorunds that at least they'll tie up the enemy for a while even if you lose them

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Re: Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by berthier » Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:41 am

I believe you can have a max of 2 elephants in Italy w Hannibal.
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paullongmore
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Re: Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by paullongmore » Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:54 am

As previously mentioned you can only have 1x2 Elephants (in Italy)
Also you can only have 1 x 4 armoured Spanish/ Gallic undrilled cav although you can have another 1 x 4 Liby Phoenician drilled armoured cav.
With the points you saved from the elephants, personally I would say that 3 x 6 or 2 x 8 of the African Vets should be almost an automatic.
Your other choice is to go Hannibal in Africa when you can have the Elephants (you can have 6)
You then only get 8 African vets but you can have the superior armd MF.

CutEmUp
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Re: Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by CutEmUp » Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:12 pm

Yes, the elephants were all dead by cannae, but he was reinforced with more elephants by sea later. You can have 6 in the list. That wasn't the question.

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Re: Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by CutEmUp » Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:15 pm

Paul, I don't know where you are getting your info, but I'm looking at the book and that's just not accurate.

CutEmUp
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Re: Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by CutEmUp » Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:39 pm

Ok, I see the Elephants now, but there is no restriction on the cavalry

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Re: Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by CutEmUp » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:08 pm

Ok, messed with it a bit, I like what you guys said.

1x IC
2x TC
3x 6 African Veterans
2x 6 Spanish Scutarii
2x 6 Numidian Javelinmen
1x 6 Balearic Slingers
1x 2 Elephants
1x 4 Liby-Phoenician Cavalry
1x 4 Gallic Cavalry
2x 4 Numidian Cavalry

For the anvil, I use terrain to create bottlenecks held by African Spearmen with the scutarii in the surrounding rough terrain. The skirmishers start the game out in front, but can melt back into terrain to support the scutarii once the enemy advance closes.

Meanwhile, the hammer works around the flanks, whichever way is best.....Flank March or double/single envelopment to hit the commuted enemy line in the rear.

The elephants can support either element of the force

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Re: Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by ravenflight » Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:41 am

CutEmUp wrote:For the anvil, I use terrain to create bottlenecks held by African Spearmen with the scutarii in the surrounding rough terrain. The skirmishers start the game out in front, but can melt back into terrain to support the scutarii once the enemy advance closes.

Meanwhile, the hammer works around the flanks, whichever way is best.....Flank March or double/single envelopment to hit the commuted enemy line in the rear.

The elephants can support either element of the force
How do you get them to commit to that fight?

Personally, I'd ignore your Heavy Foot and demolish your 'hammer'

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Re: Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by petedalby » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:46 am

Carthaginians were my first ever army but I struggle to get a decent balanced army out of this list.

There are some excellent troop types in there but too few of most things and too many of others.

Good luck coming up with a combination that works for you.
Pete

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Re: Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by grahambriggs » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:19 am

ravenflight wrote:
CutEmUp wrote:For the anvil, I use terrain to create bottlenecks held by African Spearmen with the scutarii in the surrounding rough terrain. The skirmishers start the game out in front, but can melt back into terrain to support the scutarii once the enemy advance closes.

Meanwhile, the hammer works around the flanks, whichever way is best.....Flank March or double/single envelopment to hit the commuted enemy line in the rear.

The elephants can support either element of the force
How do you get them to commit to that fight?

Personally, I'd ignore your Heavy Foot and demolish your 'hammer'
My thought exactly, but some opponents might oblige. On the other hand, the 'anvil' can advance on the enemy to fix their attention; though if you have the MF in the mix that is dependent on terrain.

I think the strategy is a very good one; one part of your army encourages the enemy to concentrate to fend it off, one part encourages the enemy to spread out or you'll get round the flanks. Many opponents will not know how to deal with both at once. As long as you can keep both of those threats real you could do well.

The order of march is important in this hammer and anvil strategy. I think it's best to put one down first, usually the anvil, so the enemy deployment focusses on that. With luck, by the time the hammer deploys the enemy deployment can't cope with it.

The problem remains though that this is a small army. For historic battles, no problem as so are the Romans. But out of period the problem is often that the anvil gets tied up against cheaper foot while the hammer gets shredded.

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Re: Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by CutEmUp » Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:40 pm

Raven - you don't think I'm going to split my forces right off the bat and leave my cavalry out there on an island, far far away from my infantry do you?

Graham, yeah, I think against out of period might be tough

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Re: Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by shadowdragon » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:44 pm

Interesting discussion considering that I have just finished painting up my Carthaginian elephants and armored Gallic cavalry. I am planning a 1000 pt Carthaginian versus mid republican Roman battle. It will be Hannibal in Africa in order to make maximum use of elephants and to have some armoured spearmen. The Carthaginian order battle is probably more for fun then maximized winning.

1 x IC
1 x FC
2 x TC
1 x 4 armoured Gallic cavalry
2 x 4 protected cavalry
1 x 4 Liby-Phoenician cavalry
3 x 4 LH
1 x 6 veteran African spear
1 x 8 African spear
1 x 6 spanish scutarii
1 x 6 Bruttian veterans
2 x 8 LF javelin
3 x 2 elephants

Suggestions for a period appropriate Roman army for maximum fun? I guess that would mean with or without a Numidian ally?

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Re: Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by berthier » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:45 pm

As said earlier, Hannibal in Italy can only have 2 elephants and not six
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Re: Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by shadowdragon » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:43 am

berthier wrote:As said earlier, Hannibal in Italy can only have 2 elephants and not six
I know. My list is for Hannibal in AFRICA

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Re: Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by berthier » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:46 am

Dope!!! My bad.
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Re: Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by shadowdragon » Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:13 am

berthier wrote:Dope!!! My bad.
No problem....my post was a bit tangential to the topic title.

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Re: Infantry Mix For Later Carthaginian Hannibal in Italy

Post by CutEmUp » Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:12 pm

Probably, the better strategy, I've learned is that the heavy foot is the strike force, max out. Everything else is there to assist it

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