Planning For a Teutonic Knight Army

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Hochmeister
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Planning For a Teutonic Knight Army

Post by Hochmeister » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:48 am

I'm wanting to do an early Teutonic Knight army with the Baltic Crusades in mind. I know the official army list is a ways off but in the meantime I'm planning and collecting models for it. Based on army lists from other rule sets I'm trying to make an educated guess on what possible unit types there might be. Here's what I'm guessing so far:

Order Knights
Crusader Knights

Livonian Light Horse (bow?)
Lithuanian Light Horse (spear/bow?)

Order Spearmen
Other Spearmen (Crusader?)
Town Militia (spear/mixed hand weapons?)

Order Crossbowmen
Other Crossbowmen (Crusader/Mercenary?)

Native Levies (Estonians, Prussians, etc.):
-spear
-javelins
-mixed hand weapons
-bows

Does this seem a plausible direction to go? Cany anybody add or detract from this list? Thanks in advance.

Twig
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Post by Twig » Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:28 pm

Hello Hochmeister,

I am putting together a Teutonic Knight army as well. I have been working towards a Livonian Confederation army, about half done, a Samogitian army, two thirds done, and an Estonian army, about one third done. I have the 1260 Battle of Durbe in mind as an eventual recreation when all the figures are ready.

I have split the troops into the following;

Teutonic Order Troops;

Knights
Mounted Crossbows
Turcopoles
Order Spearmen
Order Crossbowmen

City and Clerical Troops;

Knights
Ministeriales (More knights really, but I was wondering whether to treat them differently or not. As non-nobles they seem more keen to dismount so I was pondering a 4 base Heavy Foot group as an option, paid for at heavy foot army points).
Spearmen
Crossbowmen
?? City Guard ?? Polearm types. I am assuming somewhere like the city of Riga would be organised in a similar way to the German cities that its inhabitants are from.
Burghers. These seem sometimes to fight on foot and sometimes mounted, perhaps they could be counted in with the Ministeriales but they seem more like Holy Land Sergeants dismounting as spearmen.
Mounted Crossbows

It also seems that Teutonic, City, and the Bishops funds could pay for mercenary units of most of the above.

Feudal Troops

Variety of landowners; Teutonic Order, Colonist Knights who seem to have quickly married into the local tribal nobility there being plenty of widows available, Bishops. All of the above would maintain retinues drawn from the feudal levy and call upon greater numbers for particular campaigns. The troops themselves are going to be quite colourful. Castle and Manor garrisons would be the same as City Spearmen and Crossbowmen, perhaps they would have some bowmen.

The more 'rural' feudal troops would be light horse with bows and javelin type short spears. The foot being as you suggest; spear, javelins, mixed hand weapons, bows. So far I have two painted battlegroups following the DBM lists with medium foot spearmen in the front rank with a Teutonic commander and flag and light foot bows behind. I assume the local subjects would also defend themselves rather than be carted off into slavery so I have a peseant horde unit also, with some monks thrown in. Things seem a little different down in Prussia but the Livonians come across as extremely willing to fight their hated enemies, the Estonians and Samogitians who had been beating them up for hundreds of years.

Crusaders

Knights
Spearmen
Crossbowmen

Miscellaneous

Henry of Livonia gives the impression that the Swordbrothers quickly adapted to fighting in the marshy and wooded terrain. All the Christian forces seem to use crossbows and he says the knight brothers would dismount with crossbows to flush out woods and so on when raiding into pagan lands. I am thinking of just taking this to be dismounted commanders of medium and light foot groups; offensive spear with second rank crossbow?; rather than some dismounted knight with crossbow group.

An especially large Estonian army he describes as 6000 men so battlegroups are going to represent a few hundred in these games. On this scale it seems that smaller “companies on crusade” could be represented. These would be accompanying a crusading noble or else the equivalent of Confraternities who sent troops to The Holy Land but I can't find anywhere whether or not they also sent troops here. I can't see why not but have no evidence that they did. In game terms it would be fun to have a unit, for example, 'the butchers of Lubeck' payed for by the Guild of that City and partly consisting of its members, crusading in a more organised way than just a collection of individuals, this is 1260 after all. I suppose just adding Holy Roman Empire allies would cover it.

Both Henry and The Rhymed Chronicle often mention 'The King's Men' ie Danes sending troops to join battle. They seem to be under the command of the Teutonic Knights in battles not fighting as an allied contingent. I'm not sure though, again just adding Danish allies would cover it.

Special rules; Teutonic Knights can interpenetrate Teutonic Order Spearmen and Crossbowmen?

I can transfer my army list thoughts from pencil to postable somehow or give you a list of what I have been reading if you like. My army is for fun games with mates not tournaments, there is a lot of speculation and 'jazzing it up a bit' as Spike Milligan put it.

Twig
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Post by Twig » Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:41 pm

I think my last post made things sound a bit too complex. Here are my initial thoughts for an army list.

Image

Suggestions most welcome indeed.

Twig.

Edit:Lines in the right place.

mdoolitt
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Post by mdoolitt » Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:08 pm

Shouldn't the Mitbruder Diendebruder be 6-20 bases? Your req for both type is 6-20 bases, and putting the minima with the Diendebruder is consistent with the way other lists are organized.

Ghaznavid
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Post by Ghaznavid » Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:52 pm

Looks interesting if a bit large.
I do have my doubts about the drilled status of the colonist foot. The levy foot should most certainly be undrilled and the Ritterbruder are not going to be Elite I'm afraid.
The Mtd X-Bows probably should have drilled only as an option and only for the Knechte. Might be a bit early for so many of them anyway.
IIRC LH isn't intended to be Bow*, you will have to decide making them Bow and Swordsmen or Light Spear and Swordsmen, I heavily doubt Bow, Light Spear and Swordsmen is gonna fly. Whats the Feudal horse suposed to represent? Prussians strike me more as unprotected or maybe protected Cavalry then Light Horse.
I also think the list is a bit early to gain so many Feudal Troops, not to mention any city dwellers.

On a more semantical level. Dienendebrueder are basically Sergeants, so are likely to make up the rear ranks of Ritterbrueder and Halbbrueder. Also you have the Halbbrueder als Mitbrueder, which is prone to cause confusion because both Halbbrueder and Ritterbrueder were adressed as Mitbrueder.
Karsten


~ We are not surrounded, we are merely in a target rich environment. ~

Hochmeister
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Post by Hochmeister » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:10 pm

Thanx for all the input. This will give me a good base to work from. One question though: Wouldn't this time period be a little early for mounted crossbows? I thought these type of units didn't show up till later.

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