Early Achaemenid Persian - list help please

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windpeoples
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Early Achaemenid Persian - list help please

Post by windpeoples »

Greetings,

As my first army in FoG I chose the EAP. One self-imposed constraint, at least for the time being, is that it has to be led by Cyrus (meaning date no later than 529 bC, and an IC commander). Here is what I have come up with, but I would appreciate all the help you can give me:

Commander IC
Sub-commander TC
Sub-commander TC
Saka Allied Cdr TC

1 Guard Cavalry x4 Cv Armoured, Elite, Drilled, Bow, Swordsmen
2 Persian Cavalry x4 Cv Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
3 Persian Cavalry x4 Cv Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
4 Persian Foot x8 (4 MI Protected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Lt Spear +4 MI Protected, Average, Undrilled, Bow)
5 Persian Foot x8 (4 MI Protected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Lt Spear +4 MI Protected, Average, Undrilled, Bow)
6 Saka Cavalry x4 LH Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
7 Bactrian Cavalry x4 LH Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Lt Spear
8 Other LH Archers x4 LH Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow
9 Arab Camelry x4 Cv Unprotected, Poor, Undrilled, Bow, Camelry
10 Allied Saka Unarmoured Cavalry x4 Cv Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
11 Allied Saka Unarmoured Cavalry x4 Cv Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
12 Allied Saka Armoured Cavalry x4 Cv Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen

Total is, unless I am mistaken, 795 out of 800 points. Main enemy will be Early Imperial Roman, but other enemies are yet unknown (locals have not decided on their armies yet). It feels light in the skirmisher department, but there is also the fact that all units can fire bows, which might make foot skirmishers unnecessary (just a suposition... will bow to wisdom).

Thanks!
flameberge
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Post by flameberge »

Well skirmishers not only protect your army from missiles they are also useful to keep your shock troopers from charging skirmishers but since I don't see any shock troopers in your army your probably ok. The list looks like it will be fun to play. If the immortal fire book had come out sooner and I had seen the Persian list before I bought a bunch of Macedonians I probably would have gone with them. They look like fun to play. I love that nearly all the troops have access to bows. I'll have to make the Persians my second army. Though I guess I should finish my first one first.
hammy
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Post by hammy »

Not a bad list although I would be tempted to make one of your Saka BGs light horse rather than cavalry. I think you are a little cavalry rich and light horse poor. Not to say that this list won't work but it may be a touch easier to use if you have a Saka light horse BG instead of one of the cavalry.
rbodleyscott
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Post by rbodleyscott »

hammy wrote:Not a bad list although I would be tempted to make one of your Saka BGs light horse rather than cavalry. I think you are a little cavalry rich and light horse poor. Not to say that this list won't work but it may be a touch easier to use if you have a Saka light horse BG instead of one of the cavalry.
Given that an ally contingent should stick together for best effect, I am not sure that there is much point in switching just 1 BG of unprotected cavalry to LH in the Saka ally contingent. With the Saka being last in the order of march I think they are fine as they are. (And I have used exactly such Saka ally contingents on several occasions - 1 BG armoured superior cavalry, 2 BG average unprotected cavalry).

However, you will need to use them very carefully, and if you want to make life easy for yourself you could change both BGs of unprotected cavalry to LH. However, the all cavalry version can be more effective if you get it in the right place. (And disastrous in the wrong place).

In short, the LH are more forgiving, but potentially less effective.
caliban66
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Post by caliban66 »

I don´t like unarmoured cav if the enemy has a lot of archers. If not, they rule!
With a BG more of 4-6 poor LF, you can raise up to 13 your BG numbers. With that, your opponent will have to kill another BG to win the game, if we only count attrition points of broken BG. You could downgrade elite guard cav to superior, in order to get that LF BG. This BG may walk in front of your cavalry in order to protect them from enemy bowfire.
WhiteKnight
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Post by WhiteKnight »

I would agree with Caliban....the extra point cost for drilled elite cv over undrilled superior cv isnt worth the cost of losing out on another BG, if thats the trade-off.

Martin
windpeoples
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Post by windpeoples »

Thank you all for your replies!

I have learned a LOT from all of them. I have adjusted the army list, and it is copied below. The main changes are changing the order of deployment (new thing for me, and I had paid no attention to it until RBS mentioned it), downgrading the guard cavalry to superior undrilled, changing all Saka BGs to LH, changing a non-allied LH BG to Cv, and adding a BG of LF javelinmen. This last was a choice between adding 8 poor javelinmen for a total of 795 points, or reducing a sparabara BG to 6 bases and adding 8 average javelinmen for a total of 799. I chose the later (I am unlucky with dice, I need all the help I can get), but I know 6 MF is flimsy and the sparabara will not last much in a slugging match... but those are the tradeoffs, and poor javelinmen probably wouldn't even dent the enemy.

Anyway, EAP, take 2, with a PBIM of +4:

Commander IC
2x Sub-commander TC
Saka Allied Cdr TC

1 Mysian Javelinmen x8 LF Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Javelins, Light spear
2 Bactrian Cavalry x4 LH Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Lt Spear
3 Other LH Archers x4 LH Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow
4 Arab Camelry x4 Cv Unprotected, Poor, Undrilled, Bow, Camelry
5 Allied Saka Unarmoured Cavalry x4 LH Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
6 Allied Saka Unarmoured Cavalry x4 LH Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
7 Allied Saka Unarmoured Cavalry x4 LH Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
8 Persian Foot x8 (4 MI Protected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Lt Spear +4 MI Protected, Average, Undrilled, Bow)
9 Persian Foot x6 (3 MI Protected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Lt Spear +3 MI Protected, Average, Undrilled, Bow)
10 Persian Cavalry x4 Cv Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
11 Persian Cavalry x4 Cv Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
12 Persian Cavalry x4 Cv Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
13 Persian Cavalry x4 Cv Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen

Again, thanks for any and all comments you care to make, especially regarding the order of deployment.

(edit: Saka are now LH)
Last edited by windpeoples on Wed May 07, 2008 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rbodleyscott
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Post by rbodleyscott »

I wouldn't bother with the Arab camelry, you will find them useless.

You still have the Saka down as Cavalry.

Why no Immortals? Immortals are really good troops.
caliban66
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Post by caliban66 »

I only have the beta list, but in that version, you can´t have more than 12 persian cav. So, the downgrade I was proposing was switching from elite to superior Guard Cav, which is possible in the Beta list.
Mynok
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Post by Mynok »

So what are Immortals rated? I'm planning to build this one.

MF with a 3rd rank of bow I presume? Drilled?
flameberge
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Post by flameberge »

Immortals are MF, Armored or protected, superior, drilled, light spear, bow so they look like they would be pretty good in close combat or as missile troops.
philqw78
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Post by philqw78 »

It all depends what type of game you want to play. The way I would play this army is:

1. Use the MF, you don't get many HF, to dominate terrain, the immortals can do this, the persian foot can't.
2. Therefore it would be nice to have 24 bases of Cv/LH and an IC to more likely get the required terrain.
3. The persian Cv is good, but undrilled. Guard Cv better. You need to be able to get into the right place though to be effective. A screen of LH will help this. Therefore if taking the Saka I would have them all as LH. You can though get 12 bases, 3 units, without them which means the IC can support in a shooting match. He can't help allies.
4. Camels are poor, not just in classification. Unprotected, undrilled, non-skirmishing mounted gets shot badly and finds it difficult to get out of the way if it is in the wrong place.
5. Enemy LF should not be a real problem. You have no shock troops so they can't tempt you into charge at the wrong time, and you can shoot them with basically everything.
6. You improved on your order of march with the second list. IMHO troops that should go out first are not going to move much during the battle or can re-deploy very quickly. Then the meat, then the stuff that is critical to be in the right place. For your list the Persian foot and Mysians should not step outside rough going so hopefully starts in or near it, the LH can then fill out the line. Then the Cv and Camels as they can be placed to best effect or at least most out of the way.

Used Cyrus EAP last week and beat up some Armoured Greeks in a very historical match up. The immortals were the key troops, dominating terrain in the centre.

phil
rbodleyscott
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Post by rbodleyscott »

As a rule of thumb for all armies, always deploy MF last. (Unless they are going to be hiding at the back).

What you really mustn't do is put out your sparabara MF in a piece of terrain early in the sequence if the enemy have any decent MF. They will just give the enemy something to kill. Sparabara are quite effective if they don't have serious close combat opposition, or to block a piece of terrain against enemy mounted troops, but you don't want them to have to fight Thracians or other effective MF. (In anachronistic matchups Armoured enemy MF are worst). Placing the Immortals last of all can be very effective.

Cavalry can be placed above the MF in the deployment list because matchups are less critical and they are easier to redeploy.

So my deployment order for this army would be:

LF
Reserve cavalry
LH
Other cavalry
Sparabara
Immortals
Mynok
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Post by Mynok »

philqw78 wrote:It all depends what type of game you want to play. The way I would play this army is:

1. Use the MF, you don't get many HF, to dominate terrain, the immortals can do this, the persian foot can't.
Other than the superior rating...which is obviously large.....the Immortals don't look much different from the sparabara. Obviously if armoured that makes a difference. Otherwise, though, it's

MF, protected, superior, drilled, LtSp, Bow

vs

MF, protected, average, undrilled, LtSp, Bow

If they are just planning to sit in terrain and shoot......???? I'm missing a subtlety apparently........
flameberge
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Post by flameberge »

The other guys posting on this thread seem to know a lot more than I do about this but it seems to me there are a couple of big advantages of the immortals. First thing is that you might PLAN on just sitting in terrain and shooting but if the enemy sends in troops to come get you armored superior is way better than protected average in close combat. Secondly the immortals being drilled gives them a huge mobility advantage over undrilled. Undrilled can't even make a stationary turn without a CMT and a turn with any kind of movement is impossible; while turning or turning and advancing is a simple move for drilled. This makes it much easier to react to danger or simply turn to achieve a better arc of fire with your bows.
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Post by rbodleyscott »

Aye, don't bother with Protected Immortals, take them as Armoured. It makes a big difference as it cancels out their lack of a melee POA against Protected troops.
windpeoples
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Post by windpeoples »

Thank you all for all your comments. It has been a learning experience indeed. I need to acquire a historicals-ancients midnset, and your comments are making it easier.

So, here is attempt three. The main differences are no camels, all Saka as LH, minimum sparabara (12), exchanged one Cv BG for an Immortals BG, and upgraded one Cv BG to Guard Cavalry. Originally I had not included any immortals, because that jumped the number of bases of MF from 12 to 18, and that meant loosing a Cv BG. But they indeed seem to be MUCH better than the other MF, so maybe they ought to be included. There are other changes, but they are minor, only to get as close to 800 points as possible. Total is 799, PBIM is +4.

Commander, IC
Sub-commanders, TC x2
Saka Allied Cdr, TC

1 6x Mysian Javelinmen, LF, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Javelins, Light spear
2 6x Skirmishing Bowmen, LF, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow
3 4x Other Light Horse Archers, LH, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow
4 6x Bactrian Cavalry, LH, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Light spear

5 4x Allied Saka Unarmoured Cavalry, LH, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Swordmen
6 4x Allied Saka Unarmoured Cavalry, LH, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Swordmen
7 4x Allied Saka Unarmoured Cavalry, LH, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Swordmen

8 3x Persian or Median Foot, MF, Protected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Light spear
8 3x Persian or Median Foot, MF, Protected, Average, Undrilled, Bow
9 4x Persian or Median Cavalry, Cv, Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordmen
10 4x Persian or Median Cavalry, Cv, Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordmen

11 3x Persian or Median Foot, MF, Protected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Light spear
11 3x Persian or Median Foot, MF, Protected, Average, Undrilled, Bow
12 6x Immortals, MF, Armoured, Superior, Drilled, Bow, Light spear
13 4x Guard Cavalry, Cv, Armoured, Superior, Drilled, Bow, Swordmen

Regarding deployment order, I considered deploying the 3 MF BG last, but decided to give the Guard Cavalry one of the spots, just in case there are any emergencies they need to cover. Just trying to give myself a bit of flexibility. BGs have been grouped by deployment order, above.

Please let me know what you think. Any and all comments are welcome and much appreciated.
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