[Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Cablenexus
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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by Cablenexus » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:20 pm

gwgardner wrote:Yes, the possibility of piracy ads another dimension to play.

With regard to loyalty, sorry I wasted both of your time! It's the short-term memory. Sometimes the long-term memory.
Not really. I learned 3 new lines in the code because of your question ;-)

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by gwgardner » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:36 pm

Better yet, I'll quit turning those options off at startup.

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by Cablenexus » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:56 am

Hi,

I uploaded Hollandv0.68 to the Dropbox. Lot's of minor tweaks as discussed in the forum.

Specially Rome as a starting tribe to play with is finetuned now (and fun to play ;-).

- Added rivers and roads
- Added diplomatic standings and map visibility to Roman Empire
- Added description for all tribes in the Aggressors library (see scenario TAB).

Thank you for playing and leave your feedback!

Thank you Pavel for giving us this opportunity while in beta before release of your game.

for INSTRUCTIONS how to install see the first post of this topic. (will be changed after Aggressors v5 is available for us).

Send me a PM if you want to test the scenario or just to take a look at it.

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by pavelk » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:22 am

gwgardner wrote:Better yet, I'll quit turning those options off at startup.
I think that it is actually very good that you test the game with these turned off. Just remember which you turned off:)
Cablenexus wrote:Thank you Pavel for giving us this opportunity while in beta before release of your game.
My pleasure:) I think it is great that the new mod/scenario got attention and you can tweak it per feedback!:)

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by gwgardner » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:24 pm

personal opinion: have to be cautious about anything that breaks immersion, such as in the Roman subsidy popup, you use the word 'Enjoy.'

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by Cablenexus » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:28 pm

gwgardner wrote:personal opinion: have to be cautious about anything that breaks immersion, such as in the Roman subsidy popup, you use the word 'Enjoy.'
You are right. It was a testing text ;-)))

But thanks for reporting it. It looks stupid indeed.

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by gwgardner » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:28 am

Started games with the Chauci and the Bucteri.

The Chauci very quickly run out of food. Very little food production, and high food expenses because they have so many axemen. I tried selling all my Axemen and the Horse soldiers, but ran out of food before the sales completed.

The Bucteri have a similar problem, since they can't build fields for quite some time due to their research status. No axemen there, but little food production.

I suspect other tribes have the same problem, if they're not capable of creating fields for quite some time.

[but then noknok has proved that I'm a lousy player, since he can win on all levels, so perhaps you should not put too much stock in my experience!]

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by gwgardner » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:46 am

Just noticed another 'problem' with food, for all the tribes, and I guess the Romans too: expiring food reserves. From the manual: It cannot be stored and two thirds of the production is thrown away at the end of each turn.

So the countries start off with 100 food, but on the first turn they lose 60 to wastage. 2nd turn they lose another 20+.

In short, if you want your countries to start off with some soldiers, but no fields, very little food production ... something has to give.

The only solution I can think of is to give all the cities some fields, even if the research hasn't been done to produce more fields. Each country needs at least enough starting fields to pay for their troops and starting populace, I guess.

This is an issue that probably should be clearly stated in your 'how-to' on making new scenarios.

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by gwgardner » Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:25 am

You are probably going to change the starting resources for each country. If so, ignore this. If not, then in my opinion each country should start with just enough of each resoource to survive, from one turn to the next. Too arbitrary to start everyone the same, 100 of everything.

I mean, since none of these tribes started in 50 BC, they all had a history before, their starting resources in 50 BC should be sufficient to exist given the status quo, relative to their current mines, fields, citizens, etc.

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by pavelk » Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:14 am

There are three ways how to solve this food issue.
Cablenexus can:
  • Change the "expiration" of the food to lower value, so it will keep the food longer. However this will eventually lead to the same result (just takes longer).
  • Remove some of the units.
  • Add to existing units special extension called "economic unit" which basically removes the consumption of food for these units (this is also done this way in campaign scenario).
  • Add some terrain extensions (agricultural land or farm) for each player.
  • Use scripts for adding food resource for each player.
  • Decrease the consumption of the military unit types.

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by n0kn0k » Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:16 am

gwgardner wrote:
[but then noknok has proved that I'm a lousy player, since he can win on all levels, so perhaps you should not put too much stock in my experience!]
Don't write yourself off that easily. ;) I have 25 years experience with these type of games(and I'm only 36!) and I abuse every mechanic I can find.
I've also only played the Romans sofar. They are pretty easy to play I guess compared to the other two since you have land all around to conquer.
It makes it possible to ignore naval power for a while.

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by pavelk » Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:22 am

n0kn0k wrote:I've also only played the Romans sofar.
Here you go Gary;) Romans and Carthagians are the easiest ones and cannot be even compared to most of the other nations in game:)

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by n0kn0k » Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:35 am

pavelk wrote:
n0kn0k wrote:I've also only played the Romans sofar.
Here you go Gary;) Romans and Carthagians are the easiest ones and cannot be even compared to most of the other nations in game:)
See my topic about navies about why Romans are by far the easiest to play. ;)

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by Cablenexus » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:12 am

Thank you very much Gary. It's good to see the same issues I experience myself wehn playing my own scenario.

Since I have to start balancing now (I had some struggle with map visibility etc) it's good to know all this at foreheand. Sorry for you it takes from the fun to play.

The food

Pavel made a nice list with all possible solutions. I will study them in detail and take your solution (to start with some fields) into consideration as well.

The units

Not balanced at all. I just put some units to experiment with and to give the AI some power in the testgames. It will be like a lot of barbarians around Rome and their allies in the middle. So there will be a lot of axeman as well around germanic tribes.
I think I do like this: I start balancing units and starting objects/units and play a few turns to have a good insight of the total cost per player per turn.
After that I will come up with solutions for resource flow.
Again thank you very much for this early feedback.

The Bucteri (should be major power in the East) can also function as a trade partner for surrounding nations. I have ideas and diagrams for this based on history books I "borrowed" from the university and of course internet.
So that's all part of balancing, but I promiss you it will be very detailed and historical accurate.

I hope n0kn0k (and others) can step in with a more improved version (hopefully if he finished legenadry campaign in main game), I will do my best to improve this weekend.

FORTS

I wonder how the AI treat forts. Do he always try to defend forts given by them in scenario file? I actually don't see them detroy/sell forts never and also I never see them build forts (or towers).
Maybe to early to judge, I just wonder how to mechanism is for this.


Again thank you all very much for testing so early! I go back to the scenario.

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by Cablenexus » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:22 am

gwgardner wrote:Just noticed another 'problem' with food, for all the tribes, and I guess the Romans too: expiring food reserves. From the manual: It cannot be stored and two thirds of the production is thrown away at the end of each turn.

So the countries start off with 100 food, but on the first turn they lose 60 to wastage. 2nd turn they lose another 20+.

In short, if you want your countries to start off with some soldiers, but no fields, very little food production ... something has to give.

The only solution I can think of is to give all the cities some fields, even if the research hasn't been done to produce more fields. Each country needs at least enough starting fields to pay for their troops and starting populace, I guess.

This is an issue that probably should be clearly stated in your 'how-to' on making new scenarios.
I actually balanced this for Rome a lot since your feedback of previous version.
For example they can reserach fields and settlers at start turn now and they have this flow of stones and wood.

You are right about the wasted food. It makes no sense to set it to 100 (I put the same number for every nation here quickly just for testing).

But there is also a lot for the player to discover how to solve difficult situations. I will absolutely balance, but I'm not planning to make it an easy scenario.
There were real struggles in that time, real problems with food and production on the sandy waterland, lot's of dependancy for the Roman Empire etc etc
Tiles without fields give food as well, you can turn into war quickly and loose axeman, you have to work with the birthrate sliders to not loose all food at once, you have to use trade with surrounding tribes and you have to make choices about tehchs and where you use your settlers for.
Despite the horrible starting conditions now for the player, it looks like the AI most of the time find solutions to survive and since they use the same gameplay mechanism we can learn from them.

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by pavelk » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:37 am

Cablenexus wrote:I have ideas and diagrams for this based on history books I "borrowed" from the university and of course internet.
Why is this borrowed in quotes?:-D
Cablenexus wrote:I wonder how the AI treat forts. Do he always try to defend forts given by them in scenario file? I actually don't see them detroy/sell forts never and also I never see them build forts (or towers).
Good spot. This is actually the only thing they dont know how to use yet:) THey never build them themselves (because the algorithm to find good lines for forts is not easy) but they use it for defense if they are nearby.
This is something to be addressed in July.

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by Cablenexus » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:06 am

pavelk wrote:
Cablenexus wrote:I have ideas and diagrams for this based on history books I "borrowed" from the university and of course internet.
Why is this borrowed in quotes?:-D

Good you ask.

I use the word borrowed because I have access to them online.

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by gwgardner » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:17 pm

Cablenexus wrote: But there is also a lot for the player to discover how to solve difficult situations. I will absolutely balance, but I'm not planning to make it an easy scenario.
There were real struggles in that time, real problems with food and production on the sandy waterland, lot's of dependancy for the Roman Empire etc etc
Tiles without fields give food as well, you can turn into war quickly and loose axeman, you have to work with the birthrate sliders to not loose all food at once, you have to use trade with surrounding tribes and you have to make choices about tehchs and where you use your settlers for.
Despite the horrible starting conditions now for the player, it looks like the AI most of the time find solutions to survive and since they use the same gameplay mechanism we can learn from them.
Definitely. Don't want it easy. And I have enjoyed the scenario, realizing that it's unfinished. If I had to guess, this is the kind of game where you, the scenario developer, will probably never be totally satisfied, since there are SO MANY possibilities for changes. As with the Med scenario, there are also endless possibilities for the player to try.

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by Cablenexus » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:23 pm

pavelk wrote:There are three ways how to solve this food issue.
Cablenexus can:
  • Change the "expiration" of the food to lower value, so it will keep the food longer. However this will eventually lead to the same result (just takes longer).
  • Remove some of the units.
  • Add to existing units special extension called "economic unit" which basically removes the consumption of food for these units (this is also done this way in campaign scenario).
  • Add some terrain extensions (agricultural land or farm) for each player.
  • Use scripts for adding food resource for each player.
  • Decrease the consumption of the military unit types.
Yes, it's a good list of how difficult balancing actually is and what an amount of detail is involved (positive for my part).

And the list isn't even complete. You have resources from conquering, the tiles without fields, your goverment and there are random events (like you can get 25 food once).

I try to do this very carefully and step by step, but let me know if it's still too difiicult to mantain units in new version soon.

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Re: [Release]Holland -Battle over Rhenus 50 B.C.

Post by pavelk » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:26 pm

Cablenexus wrote:And the list isn't even complete. You have resources from conquering, the tiles without fields, your goverment and there are random events (like you can get 25 food once).
That is absolutely right. I forgot all that.
If I were you, I would set the unit extensions like it is in the campaign map.

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