Is there any way to give or return territory to allies?

Field of Glory: Empires is a grand strategy game in which you will have to move in an intricate and living tapestry of nations and tribes, each one with their distinctive culture.
Set in Europe and in the Mediterranean Area during the Classical Age, experience what truly means to manage an Empire.

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guanotwozero
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Re: Is there any way to give or return territory to allies?

Post by guanotwozero » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:28 am

loki100 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:42 am
...
Fourth, my feeling is mostly in this era states took regons for the long term, its not the 18C where wars usually ended with both sides grabbing out of the way settlements simply to have something to bargain with at the peace settlement
...
But there was also a fair amount of migration; think of Caesar's Gallic Wars being largely triggered by the intended migration of the Helvetii from the Alps to the Atlantic. Tribal expansions had a knock-on effect of their neighbours seeking to relocate, causing a bit of a cascade. Even the Romans had expeditions where they did not intend to occupy, at least not initially, like an early form of reconnaissance-by-fire. I do think there is a justification for some sort of "passing through" mechanic.

To avoid moving far from historical precedent, the restraints could maybe use a supply mechanic.

e.g. a nomadic tribe would take its "supply centre" with it - a temporary capital which can relocate easily. Armies from settled nations would rely on a supply line from home territory. Breaking that would effectively force a retreat.

If you pass through a territory and want to remain supplied, you have to maintain a controlled line of territories leading to your capital (static or nomadic). However, these could still be regarded as "occupied" as distinct from "owned". An occupied territory would provide no benefit other than pillage/forage and safe supply. This would also allow for enemies to deliberately cut supply lines, similar to how ships can blockade trade links.

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Re: Is there any way to give or return territory to allies?

Post by panzeh » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:42 pm

I think being able to set territory back to unowned is probably the best way to go here as it eliminates exploits involving giving territory to AI nations to make them collapse.

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Re: Is there any way to give or return territory to allies?

Post by Pocus » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:54 pm

Great discussion ongoing!

Specifically on the slave market decision, probably having it be given at a less random interval would be a safe improvement though.

Some people just don't want to hear that Rome had civil wars or had slaves revolts (and not only the Spartacus one, the first servile war lasted 7 years!), but it happened and was nasty. So they would prefer to have none of these. That would make for a quite insipid game :wink:
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Re: Is there any way to give or return territory to allies?

Post by guanotwozero » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:04 pm

panzeh wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:42 pm
I think being able to set territory back to unowned is probably the best way to go here as it eliminates exploits involving giving territory to AI nations to make them collapse.
That makes sense - it becomes an independent neutral. If the former owner wants to grab it again, they can just conquer it.

When relinquished there could even be a mechanic to determine whether the locals become self-governing or choose to rejoin their former rulers without a fight, e.g. some sort of tribal/ethnic loyalty.

An occupied territory should not be managed like an owned one, with its buildings, trade and economy, but it should be possible to pillage or forage.

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Re: Is there any way to give or return territory to allies?

Post by USGrant1962 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:30 pm

I would love to see more fleshed out diplomacy options.

In the near term, I think "grant independence" would be a good start. If players could give up regions it could better reflect campaigning and then leaving. As it stands, other factions declaring war on you seems to frequently determine which way you expand. I've been playing the Romans and my objectives are in Gaul and south, yet am in constant wars and expanding north due to Germanic nations declaring war on me.

To grant independence, conditions to prevent excessive gaming might be:

1. Region is not part of a province created by the player
2. No units present in the region
3. Owned for less than X turns (say 10)
4. Less than 50% of the population is player's ethnic group
5. Player loses 1 legacy point
6. Region goes through the existing revolt resolution routine where sometimes it becomes independent and sometimes it is a resurrected faction

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Re: Is there any way to give or return territory to allies?

Post by ledo » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:52 pm

USGrant1962 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:30 pm
I would love to see more fleshed out diplomacy options.

In the near term, I think "grant independence" would be a good start. If players could give up regions it could better reflect campaigning and then leaving. As it stands, other factions declaring war on you seems to frequently determine which way you expand. I've been playing the Romans and my objectives are in Gaul and south, yet am in constant wars and expanding north due to Germanic nations declaring war on me.

To grant independence, conditions to prevent excessive gaming might be:

1. Region is not part of a province created by the player
2. No units present in the region
3. Owned for less than X turns (say 10)
4. Less than 50% of the population is player's ethnic group
5. Player loses 1 legacy point
6. Region goes through the existing revolt resolution routine where sometimes it becomes independent and sometimes it is a resurrected faction
It might be less of a problem if the ai was less suicidal in its war declarations at times and more willing to peace out if you defeat it several times to the point where you can effectively wipe it out. I think it's good that the ai is opportunistic when you're overstretched but once it's clear you're focusing on it and have defeated it to the point it has no effective armies left it should probably be willing to peace out. There should be modifier for heavy fortifications though, making countries like Sicily more willing to fight longer. Additionally relations and maybe some other threat factors should modify that so an AI in each war has a variable commitment to a prolonged war. It's base accept peace modifier should reflect whether its fighting a total existential war or just trying to take advantage of perceived weakness.

The penalties for releasing territories should be much higher though as it provides a huge advantage to the player over the current state of affairs, so the game would become much easier. 1 legacy is not really a problem, hell the 100 legacy for emergency levies feels too cheap, since this game is a marathon and the cost of 100 legacy in the short term is easily paid for and then some by the benefit of 10 instant troops in a moment of need. I don't really even have to think when pressing that button if the enemy has just defeated me on the field and has a straight shot to my capital.

Edit: I do realise relations already play a role but I'm just musing what different war types for the AI would be based on.
Last edited by ledo on Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is there any way to give or return territory to allies?

Post by ledo » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:55 pm

Basically if just like a solution that makes the ai more wary of losing territory it likes and more willing to peace out when that happens or is likely to happen since that will benefit the AI as well and mitigate a shift in balance. Any option that just gives more choice to players will inevitably shift the balance in favour of the player .

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Re: Is there any way to give or return territory to allies?

Post by USGrant1962 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:16 am

After reviewing my current game (about 100 turns in as Rome with +54 Legacy per turn) I agree that 1 legacy point is not enough.

I also think Ledo brings up a good point regarding the impact of/on the AI. Would the AI be able or capable of abandoning regions like the player?

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Re: Is there any way to give or return territory to allies?

Post by Gilmer » Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:23 am

Playing Rome, I got a decision to make the Etruscans and Samnites part of the "empire". 150 Legacy points. Only problem is it came about turn 80 which was about 55 turns too late. They are already part of my empire. Why so late?

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Re: Is there any way to give or return territory to allies?

Post by lostangelonline » Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:28 pm

guanotwozero wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:04 pm
An occupied territory should not be managed like an owned one, with its buildings, trade and economy, but it should be possible to pillage or forage.
I completely disagree. This is one of the things that I hated in EU4, as I could not manage a conquered region as my own, unless the ex-owner agrees to it through peace. This is extremely unrealistic, since in reality, he who has complete control of the region, can build/destroy buildings, tax people, etc. No mater how unwilling peasants are, unless they openly revolt, they can only work less or pay less taxes (which is already simulated by "just conquered" and "under pacification" penalties).

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Re: Is there any way to give or return territory to allies?

Post by loki100 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:17 pm

KurtC wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:23 am
Playing Rome, I got a decision to make the Etruscans and Samnites part of the "empire". 150 Legacy points. Only problem is it came about turn 80 which was about 55 turns too late. They are already part of my empire. Why so late?
random chance - but also try not to conquer them if you can help it. I tend to destroy the Samnites as their raiding can be very annoying

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Re: Is there any way to give or return territory to allies?

Post by guanotwozero » Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:15 am

lostangelonline wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:28 pm
... This is extremely unrealistic, since in reality, he who has complete control of the region, can build/destroy buildings, tax people, etc. No mater how unwilling peasants are, unless they openly revolt, they can only work less or pay less taxes (which is already simulated by "just conquered" and "under pacification" penalties).
And in turn, I disagree. If your army is 'passing through' with no intention of staying for the long term, you wouldn't bring a horde of administrators and other functionaries to manage a province as one of your own. Your general is only concerned with having a safe space for his troops while en route. If you want to make a quick profit, then pillage. This is completely different from the EU mechanic where the intention is to seize it for the long term.

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Re: Is there any way to give or return territory to allies?

Post by lostangelonline » Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:18 am

guanotwozero wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:15 am
lostangelonline wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:28 pm
guanotwozero wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:04 pm
An occupied territory should not be managed like an owned one, with its buildings, trade and economy, but it should be possible to pillage or forage.
... This is extremely unrealistic, since in reality, he who has complete control of the region, can build/destroy buildings, tax people, etc. No mater how unwilling peasants are, unless they openly revolt, they can only work less or pay less taxes (which is already simulated by "just conquered" and "under pacification" penalties).
And in turn, I disagree. If your army is 'passing through' with no intention of staying for the long term, you wouldn't bring a horde of administrators and other functionaries to manage a province as one of your own. Your general is only concerned with having a safe space for his troops while en route. If you want to make a quick profit, then pillage. This is completely different from the EU mechanic where the intention is to seize it for the long term.
I agree you don't quite have the option of 'passing through', except for regions with a palisade/wall (if you do not give the "assault" order), and this is unrealistic. For regions without palisade/wall, you automatically "assault" and conquer the region, which causes many complains, addressed by the devs by adding the "retaliate" option (which does not solve the problem). I much better solution would have been to just not auto-conquer non-walled regions, except if you ordered it by pressing "assault" (which could be renamed to "conquer").

But if you want to conquer the region, and you defeat all resistance, I see not reasons why you could not, even while the war is ongoing without peace in sight, destroy/build buildings, try to collect food/money from peasants or trying to make them accept you as their new ruler. Of course, to bring a horde of administrators and other functionaries will take years, and peasants will work less, have higher chance of revolting, but as I said, this is already simulated by "just conquered" and "under pacification" penalties.
Last edited by lostangelonline on Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is there any way to give or return territory to allies?

Post by guanotwozero » Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:02 pm

lostangelonline wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:18 am
But if you want to conquer the region, and you defeat all resistance, I see not reasons why you could not, even while the war is ongoing without peace in sight, destroy/build buildings, try to collect food/money from peasants or trying to make them accept you as their new ruler. Of course, to bring a horde of administrators and other functionaries will take years, and peasants will work less, have higher chance of revolting, but as I said, this is already simulated by "just conquered" and "under pacification" penalties.
But we can already do that - direct conquest has been there from the start. The problem is that there are consequences of such conquest (unrest, decadence, etc), and a player may wish to avoid those. Often we don't want to expand too quickly, or expand only into desired territories with certain resources or strategic value.

The above suggestion is a way of an army 'passing through' without such direct conquest. Armies should still remain in supply, and a temporary occupation would be a way of enabling that. Also, before 1.04 there was no retaliate mechanic - sending an army across your border to eliminate raiders resulted in conquest.

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Re: Is there any way to give or return territory to allies?

Post by lostangelonline » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:59 am

guanotwozero wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:02 pm
But we can already do that - direct conquest has been there from the start.
Just to clear things up: I never said it is not already in game. Our discussion started when you said "An occupied territory should not be managed like an owned one", and I disagreed with your proposed change, thinking that you mean that we should never be able to fully manage a conquered region, even if we want to, while war is ongoing and peace not signed (like it is in EU4). Now I start to think that by "occupied" you actually mean moving your army into a region without conquering/owning it (like it is in the game now when you move in a walled region).
guanotwozero wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:02 pm
lostangelonline wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:18 am
[..]addressed by the devs by adding the "retaliate" option[..]
Also, before 1.04 there was no retaliate mechanic - sending an army across your border to eliminate raiders resulted in conquest.
Just to clear things up: that's also what I said (just more detailed).
guanotwozero wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:02 pm
The problem is that there are consequences of such conquest (unrest, decadence, etc), and a player may wish to avoid those. Often we don't want to expand too quickly, or expand only into desired territories with certain resources or strategic value.

The above suggestion is a way of an army 'passing through' without such direct conquest. Armies should still remain in supply, and a temporary occupation would be a way of enabling that.
Ok, so it seems we both agree with: non-walled regions should not be auto-conquered (except if you ordered it by pressing "assault"), just like it is for the walled regions, right?

EDIT: and again "HTTP ERROR 500" when submitting this post. if I refresh it would have double posted. anyone else having this issue?

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Re: Is there any way to give or return territory to allies?

Post by guanotwozero » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:52 pm

lostangelonline wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:59 am
... Our discussion started when you said "An occupied territory should not be managed like an owned one", and I disagreed with your proposed change, thinking that you mean that we should never be able to fully manage a conquered region, even if we want to, while war is ongoing and peace not signed (like it is in EU4). Now I start to think that by "occupied" you actually mean moving your army into a region without conquering/owning it (like it is in the game now when you move in a walled region).
Ah, I think you initially misunderstood but subsequently realised - I'm definitely talking about an alternative to full ownership for temporary military reasons - 'passing through' is the correct interpretation. However, it should remain safe for supply, so all enemies must be eliminated - no unconquered walls should remain. This would be an alternative chosen by the player.

I was disagreeing with @Loki100's suggestion that historically, states would only be taken only for the long term; I gave examples of short-term occupation. In the game, the nature of that occupation should be very limited compared to full ownership. Hence the idea of forage/pillage but not administration.

As there is an intention of expanding Diplomacy in the game, there may be future diplomatic methods of gaining such occupation or even just safe, supplied transit. This would be useful for an expeditionary army or for a migrating tribe; neither wants to 'fully own' the territory they transit, and both want to relinquish it afterwards.

BTW I've not had Slitherine site errors on Firefox, but on the Matrix side I get frequent errors and must use Chrome instead. Even there I must clear cache every now and again.

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