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Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:15 pm
by 13obo
I'll test A again at home tonight, but very sure you are defending when you order a sortie.

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:32 pm
by Lysimachos
Sorry to contradict you but just yesterday I saw a garrison sortying from the defences that I was besieging, which was correctly labeled as attacker.
Then, after losing the first clash without being wiped out, it was my army that was labeled as attacker in the subsequent combat, probably treating the case as a pursuit.
Because during this second battle the enemy wasn't yet destroyed, then followed a third encounter where the garrison was newly labeled as attacker.

I presume it was because:
- the second clash closed the "first battle", as made up of the phase of the sally and the phase of the subsequent retreat and pursuit,
- the impulse given with the "sally" order at the beginning of the turn then prompted the garrison to attack again, being not yet entirely destroyed, which labeled it again as attacker.

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:43 pm
by Hendricus
If being the attacker gives a higher bonus compared to defending perhaps there should be a possible order to make your army wait till the enemy enters your region and just then unleash hell. Two armies in the open next to each other now have to move back a region hoping that other army enters the region you just left. In the same turn retrograde movement to attack the enemy that is now defending while it advanced. It's mind boggling cat and mouse strategy. If both do that, they end up moving back and forth without contact. Where do they end if both go forward ?

That order could be attack invaders. If priority is given to armies that attack invaders to become the attacker commanders have a sharp defensive tool. I know, it's confusing.

Read also my comment about scouts in the phalanx/heavy infantry section.

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:48 pm
by 13obo
Lysimachos wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:32 pm
Sorry to contradict you but just yesterday I saw a garrison sortying from the defences that I was besieging, which was correctly labeled as attacker.
Then, after losing the first clash without being wiped out, it was my army that was labeled as attacker in the subsequent combat, probably treating the case as a pursuit.
Because during this second battle the enemy wasn't yet destroyed, then followed a third encounter where the garrison was newly labeled as attacker.

I presume it was because:
- the second clash closed the "first battle", as made up of the phase of the sally and the phase of the subsequent retreat and pursuit,
- the impulse given with the "sally" order at the beginning of the turn then prompted the garrison to attack again, being not yet entirely destroyed, which labeled it again as attacker.
Point taken, I'll test tonight by sieging a region, switching nation to defending nation and then ordering garrison to storm out. Carthage and Syracuse seem good candidates for the test.

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:10 pm
by 13obo
I stand corrected- I am attacking when I order units to sally out of garrison! This makes garrisons a lot more useful.

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:59 pm
by Jagger2002
c) If you 'just arrived' from another region you are not defending
See my post in tech support titled Possible bug attacker/defender for an example in which a just arrived army is designated as the defender instead of attacker.

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:24 pm
by desertedfox
Okay, my first question still remains unanswered.

Army "A" is in a region it controls, which is next to the enemy army 'B" sitting in a region which army B controls.

The orders given are for army A to attack the region army B is in.

Army B has orders to attack the Region army A is in.

So what determines which army, A or B, gets to actually move into the others region and get the lucky attacker advantage?

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:29 am
by Lysimachos
desertedfox wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:24 pm
Okay, my first question still remains unanswered.

Army "A" is in a region it controls, which is next to the enemy army 'B" sitting in a region which army B controls.

The orders given are for army A to attack the region army B is in.

Army B has orders to attack the Region army A is in.

So what determines which army, A or B, gets to actually move into the others region and get the lucky attacker advantage?
I think that, at the moment, there is no clear answer because, as Pocus wrote, this is determined by the label "just arrived" assigned to an army in movement, which is not working properly given the various "antagonistic constraints" put on it, which makes that the value in some cases is maintained and in some other not.
Moreover, Pocus didn't reveal which are these "antagonistic constraints" ...

P.S.
So I fear that our Seleucids and Ptolemaics armies will carry on battling as blind flies, hoping to get the bonus by chance ... :(

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:36 pm
by choppinlt
Perhaps Pocus already has this figured out on how to handle, but as I posted in a different thread why not allow for a "meeting engagement" in a case like this? Both sides could use their attack ratings and other factors would determine who wins or loses instead of who gets picked as the attacker.

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:07 pm
by Soar
The changelog for version 1.0.6 includes this:
• Improved how the game determines who is defending (outside of assaults)
So is there now some sort of logic we can use to determine who gets to be attacker when two armies try to move into each others' regions?

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:17 am
by Pocus
Yes, in the end I had to trace the exact impulse within a turn when each army stopped moving. The one who stopped last will be the attacker, unless it has stopped movement for at least 4 impulses. But battle is checked every impulse.

If you settled for at least 4 impulses, then if you manage to get attacked by an army that did not move (like I don't know, a revolt), then the most numerous is the defender.
A sortie is always considered attacking also.

So it is now possible as the besieger to be the defender. Before you would be the attacker!

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:43 pm
by Soar
Good to know. But the question that started the thread still stands: What happens when two opposing armies are about to enter each other's region on the same movement tick?

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:25 am
by Pocus
One get pushed back, usually the smaller. It is in the code since game release. If you have this feature not working, please tell me.

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:22 pm
by Soar
Thanks, it's good to have that clarified. If I see any odd cases, I'll let you know.