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Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:49 pm
by desertedfox
Say there are two armies at war with each other in adjoining regions. They both give orders to attack into the opponent's region where their army is.

What will actually determine which stack gets to move into the opponent's region (and usually gives a huge advantage for the attacker)?

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:26 pm
by loki100
whichever one has the lowest MP cost to enter.

remember the movement phase is conducted in steps, every moving unit expends 1 of its MP, then they all expend the 2nd, at some stage some stacks run out of movement, so more MP is not 'faster' its further.

so if stack A would expend 2 MP to enter and B 3 MP then A is there when B arrives.

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:42 pm
by 13obo
I've been wondering that for a long time (including today) and so far my experience is that it's always the enemy... I've discovered what does NOT determine who attacks the neighbour:
- Terrain type/movement cost: I've had nations attack first from plains (enemy) to hilly (my army) region, from hilly to mountain, and from hilly to plains region.
- Nation name (alphabetical): I've played as Epirus and Macedonia attacked first in my home region (E before M). It's also not the other way around as I've played Massalia and Arverni attacked first (M after A).
- Nation tier: I've played as Massalia (tier 2) and Arverni (tier 3) attacked first in my home region. It's also not the other way around because of the Epirus (tier 2) and Macedonia (tier 1) example above.
- Army strength: Had some desertic tribe attack my 150 combat power with 50 combat power and had Macedonia attack me with a stronger army as Epirus.

So to sum up, the above factors do NOT determine who attacks first. If anyone knows what could be the real factor, do share!

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:45 pm
by 13obo
loki100 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:26 pm
whichever one has the lowest MP cost to enter.

remember the movement phase is conducted in steps, every moving unit expends 1 of its MP, then they all expend the 2nd, at some stage some stacks run out of movement, so more MP is not 'faster' its further.

so if stack A would expend 2 MP to enter and B 3 MP then A is there when B arrives.
I also thought it's that but it ain't. As stated in my previous post, Macedonia attacked me from their home hilly region (3 movement point cost) into my mountain home region (6 movement point cost), despite ordering my army to attack. You can test by starting with Epirus, declaring war on turn 1, and sending your army to their home region/attack their army on turn 2 (they will most likely send theirs to your home region).

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:32 pm
by loki100
ok, apols, I thought you were asking who arrived first.

as to who is attacker/defender then the only thing I can find is from the manual (10.7.1):
Each side is either defending or attacking. The defender in a battle
is the side with the biggest number of units not having moved this
impulse (the only exception to this is if the defenders have sortied
from a besieged city).
and I can't work out from that who is defending if both sides have moved 100% of their units.

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:45 pm
by 13obo
The question is who arrives first in the region of the opposing army when 2 armies are about to attack each other during turn resolution. In that scenario, the manual's description that movement should be simultaneous of 1 point per impulse does not seem to hold.

Maybe Pocus could help with this?

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:56 pm
by desertedfox
and I can't work out from that who is defending if both sides have moved 100% of their units.
This is exactly what I mean. Both armies are moving in the first impulse against each other, and if for example they are pikes then it is very importnt as to who gets to be the attacker.

Given the importance of this result, I would dearly like to know what exactly is the determing factor in this example, becasue who ever gets to be the defender is going to be shafted.

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:33 am
by Jagger2002
Each side is either defending or attacking. The defender in a battle
is the side with the biggest number of units not having moved this
impulse (the only exception to this is if the defenders have sortied
from a besieged city).
I think this is not working as intended. As far as I can tell whoever owns the territory is the defender.
becasue who ever gets to be the defender is going to be shafted
I have a hard time wrapping my mind around this concept especially when determining the defender is not related to size of armies or leadership. Some questions recently about this system but no answers yet from Pocus.

In my opinion, this system produces very odd maneuvering by the Diadochi phalanx heavy armies in an attempt to achieve attack advantage.

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:25 pm
by Pocus
I replied in the thread specific to the phalanx debate:

viewtopic.php?f=534&t=94423&p=809317#p809317

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:23 pm
by 13obo
Thank you! But in order to understand the game and its mechanics better, could you tell us what determines who will be attacker during the turn resolution phase in a scenario where two nations at war have armies in neighbouring regions, which have been issued an order to attack the opposite army?

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:01 pm
by desertedfox
13obo wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:23 pm
Thank you! But in order to understand the game and its mechanics better, could you tell us what determines who will be attacker during the turn resolution phase in a scenario where two nations at war have armies in neighbouring regions, which have been issued an order to attack the opposite army?
Please answer this. It's all fine forcing players to jockey for position but I would lke to know the movement mechanics when doing it.

Right now, it's like buying a lotto ticket.

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:59 am
by Lysimachos
desertedfox wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:01 pm
13obo wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:23 pm
Thank you! But in order to understand the game and its mechanics better, could you tell us what determines who will be attacker during the turn resolution phase in a scenario where two nations at war have armies in neighbouring regions, which have been issued an order to attack the opposite army?
Please answer this. It's all fine forcing players to jockey for position but I would lke to know the movement mechanics when doing it.

Right now, it's like buying a lotto ticket.
I totally agree with desertedfox.
Such an important feature in the game cannot remain undisclosed.
If jockeying with the respective armies has to make sense, the players should know what gives them the advantage and what do not.
Otherwise also jockeying itself would loose any sense because, if you're not able to understand the consequences of a move, any move becomes equal to the other.
Not to say that players who may have shared some reserved information on the topic with the devs during the beta phase could be unfairly advantaged on this issue ...

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:32 am
by ledo
Lysimachos wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:59 am
desertedfox wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:01 pm
13obo wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:23 pm
Thank you! But in order to understand the game and its mechanics better, could you tell us what determines who will be attacker during the turn resolution phase in a scenario where two nations at war have armies in neighbouring regions, which have been issued an order to attack the opposite army?
Please answer this. It's all fine forcing players to jockey for position but I would lke to know the movement mechanics when doing it.

Right now, it's like buying a lotto ticket.
I totally agree with desertedfox.
Such an important feature in the game cannot remain undisclosed.
If jockeying with the respective armies has to make sense, the players should know what gives them the advantage and what do not.
Otherwise also jockeying itself would loose any sense because, if you're not able to understand the consequences of a move, any move becomes equal to the other.
Not to say that players who may have shared some reserved information on the topic with the devs during the beta phase could be unfairly advantaged on this issue ...
I agree, particularly when in theory this could be worked out with some playtesting between friends. It creates an obsession advantage beyond the standard optimisation fetish some people have in terms of build order etc. The basic mechanics in a relatively simple system should be clear, and this game runs on a relatively simple system.

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:10 am
by 13obo
I tested it extensively (see my first post in the tooic) and couldn't determine a logical reason behind who is attacker. We would need Pocus either to enlighten us or dig into the issue (if he has time and willingness of course).

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:20 pm
by ledo
13obo wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:10 am
I tested it extensively (see my first post in the tooic) and couldn't determine a logical reason behind who is attacker. We would need Pocus either to enlighten us or dig into the issue (if he has time and willingness of course).
Sorry I had read that but still assumed that since it's code unless it was a random number generator something must be determining it. Did you rest for both greater number of units as well as combat power? From a naval perspective I've had units move through each other with no engagement, I wonder if there's different rules there.

It's usualluy not a problem because I use a reentry maneuver to ensure combat but that only helps with an offensive focus

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:47 pm
by 13obo
It's not a random outcome (same setup leads to same outcome), so there is something in the background that we are not aware of. Yes, I've monitored outcome when enemy army is larger or smaller too and still does not seem to be determinant of who's attacker.

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:21 am
by Pocus
There is no randomness involved.

Rereading the code, the note indicates there might be cases where there are loopholes, perhaps you found one.

The code so far is that the side with the most "defending units" is the defender.
What makes a defending army:

a) if you are doing a sortie, you are not defending

b) If you are not moving and the region is not owned by an enemy, you are defending

c) If you 'just arrived' from another region you are not defending

the 'just arrived' might be the issue because various 'antagonistic constraints'' are on that... The "Just Arrived" value is maintained in some cases and in some is not...

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:49 am
by 13obo
Pocus wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:21 am
There is no randomness involved.

Rereading the code, the note indicates there might be cases where there are loopholes, perhaps you found one.

The code so far is that the side with the most "defending units" is the defender.
What makes a defending army:

a) if you are doing a sortie, you are not defending

b) If you are not moving and the region is not owned by an enemy, you are defending

c) If you 'just arrived' from another region you are not defending

the 'just arrived' might be the issue because various 'antagonistic constraints'' are on that... The "Just Arrived" value is maintained in some cases and in some is not...
Thank you! Though now I am even less clear what happens... Case b) was clear and leads to consistent results- defending army defends in friendly regions.

Case a) is a new one for me- do you mean that if a fortification is sieged and I order the garrison to leave, they will be on the attacker side? Every time I've made this order, my garrison is on the defending side despite technically attacking, which contradicts your statement. Unless "sortie" means something else?

Case c) does seem to be the reason for the OP initial question and where things go wrong. Unfortunately, we are not nearer to an answer than before.

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:39 am
by MARVIN_THE_ARVN
Maybe case A is regarding retaliates?

Re: Determining who enters what region.

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:07 pm
by Pocus
No A is just for sortie, as you understand it. Might be bugged then.
know case C is a bit opaque.

The best to do here is to bring me saves before something weird happens, so I can understand what went wrong.