The new scoring system...

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dave_r
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by dave_r » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:34 am

philqw78 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:16 am
No, the primary purpose is to win the competition - this can be achieved by winning or drawing, or even losing
I thought the scoring was supposed to promote aggressive play.

It can be seen above that it doesn't. It promotes draws. So get an unbreakable army and hope your enemy suicides on it (I remember Sp(O) DBM).
Or get one that is hard to catch and run around your enemy picking bits off using your prowess at just staying out of charge reach

3-1-0 for tournaments based upon and backed up by the game's scoring system works (since all you have said against it is either irrelevant, inaccurate or invented)
You aren't comparing apples with apples. The problem is that you are taking results from a competition that promotes extremely aggressive play and then calculating what would happen with a scoring system that doesn't promote aggressive play.

If you had the 3-1-0 scoring system at the challenge you would get different results. I've played in many more 3-1-0 competitions than you have and believe me, it's not a good scoring system. There were very good reasons why we moved away from it and all players were happy that we had - I think that tells a story doesn't it?
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by philqw78 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:41 am

The problem is that you are taking results from a competition that promotes extremely aggressive play and then calculating what would happen with a scoring system that doesn't promote aggressive play.
The problem is I am using evidence, shown above, to prove that the more aggressive players, those that won more games and drew less, would do better in 3-1-0 than they did in the system you say promotes extremely aggressive play

Where is your evidence Dave. Where are your 3-1-0 competitions that promoted draws

More evidence. The last time you moaned about a 3-1-0 you played in was IWF where you took Graham Evans and Pete Dalby. Both were used to playing in a system that more rewarded winning draws. They got 4 draws the team losts. Every IWF after that GB won when it turned up. Why, we won more games than everybody else
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by dave_r » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:52 am

philqw78 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:41 am
The problem is that you are taking results from a competition that promotes extremely aggressive play and then calculating what would happen with a scoring system that doesn't promote aggressive play.
The problem is I am using evidence, shown above, to prove that the more aggressive players, those that won more games and drew less, would do better in 3-1-0 than they did in the system you say promotes extremely aggressive play

Where is your evidence Dave. Where are your 3-1-0 competitions that promoted draws

More evidence. The last time you moaned about a 3-1-0 you played in was IWF where you took Graham Evans and Pete Dalby. Both were used to playing in a system that more rewarded winning draws. They got 4 draws the team losts. Every IWF after that GB won when it turned up. Why, we won more games than everybody else
It was the ITC actually... I played in several ITC's that used this system that you weren't at and believe me, there is nothing more demoralising than watch your opponent play for nothing more than a draw, destroy 90% of his army, lose nothing of your own and then get a 1-1 score.
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by philqw78 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:09 am

ITC/IWF, potato, potatoe
Dave the stick in the Mud wrote:You aren't comparing apples with apples
IWF was a team competition. Poorer players will play for draws to assist the better players in their team. Not what we are discussing here. Again where is your evidence that 3-1-0 will not work?

Or we could change nothing, stick to what we have and see people move away
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by dave_r » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:28 am

I no longer have the evidence. It was many years ago.

I've been compiling the rankings for years as well, I've had lots of queries around the rankings, how they are calculated, etc, etc. I've never (ever) had a complaint around points scored from a game except by Chris.
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by philqw78 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:24 am

But I have shown evidence from the latest competition

And now Martin and I have valid points about it. If we do not grow and improve we will die (the robots are going to kill us anyway so I'm not extremely bothered)

Chris runs a competition. He can try out what he wants on that so let him
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by dave_r » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:41 am

philqw78 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:24 am
But I have shown evidence from the latest competition

And now Martin and I have valid points about it. If we do not grow and improve we will die (the robots are going to kill us anyway so I'm not extremely bothered)

Chris runs a competition. He can try out what he wants on that so let him
And I've said why I believe that evidence to be flawed. Chris can of course run the competition how he sees fit.

I rather think that attempting to publicise FoG rather than having a huge argument over something that nobody is complaining about is possibly more constructive?
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by prb4 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:54 am

Why do people enter competitions?
Or perhaps a better question would be why do new and mediocre players enter competitions?

Is it because they enjoy competitive games?
Or is it because they want to play some games against people they haven't played before or don't play often?

Top players like competitive games.
I'm sure there are mediocre and new players who also enjoy competitive games. Anyone who aspires to improve their game play will understand they are learning a lot getting beat in a competition.

However I suspect there are some players who just enter competitions to play games and not win. I can imagine it is not fun for these players to get badly beaten as they aren't really there for the competitive aspect.

It won't be possible to run a competition that pleases everyone.

Perhaps what is needed is the option to offer a non-competitive event at the same venues as competitions. People can enter, send in an army list that can be checked over, however the players for this event are simply paired randomly each round and no scores are kept, no prizes given. I can imagine this more relaxed style event appealing to some people (although I don't know how many). It would be helpful if there was an experienced umpire for the event who could help teach the rules if necessary.

Peter

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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by ChrisTofalos » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:24 pm

I rather think that attempting to publicise FoG rather than having a huge argument over something that nobody is complaining about is possibly more constructive?
I'm complaining about it! And there are others who agree - maybe quite a few others, certainly amongst those who don't get involved in discussions on sites like this.

I make every effort I can to publicise FOG; starting the Facebook page and trying to keep interest up at MAWS, where the FOG comp is the only surviving one. I believe FOG is far superior to the alternatives, especially Version 3, and would like to see its use increase rather than the ghastly fall off in numbers we've seen.

I firmly believe the new scoring system is bad for the game. It seems designed to make the better players' scores look even better and, as such, is not in the interests of the game as a whole.

Have those 'looking after' FOG done a job? Version 3, good though it is, should have been released as a free PDF amendment sheet, which could EASILY have been done, instead of a £25+ additional buy (which, no doubt, lost us a few more players). It would also have then been available much earlier, which might also have helped. Similarly, the army lists could have been released as PDFs. Players have paid a lot in rule books and numerous army lists and it would have been nice to see their investment rewarded, rather than their interest used as an excuse to make a bit more money. FOG is in decline; it doesn't need helping on its way!

I've had an interest in toy/model soldiers for most of my 71 years. When I joined a club in the early 70s I saw great potential for growth. But apart from rare shining lights like Peter Gilder, who managed to get the hobby onto TV, it's been run in a most disorganised way.

I'm trying to help improve things, albeit in my usual awkward and confrontational way, but it seems the bigger picture is just not in some fields of view.

Where do I get these robots from, Phil?

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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by philqw78 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:27 pm

Where do I get these robots from, Phil?
They will find you

I do agree with you to a point Chris. If just 2 people on here are complaining that is a lot, because most players do not come on here. Change your competition, see if it works.

I also think some of the existing competitions could experiment. As Pete said above lots of (IMO most) players go to competitions to have a bit of fun. Winning is nice but not everything. Even Pete Dalby gets a good seeing to every other competition now.

As for costs of rules. They're not easy to write, then they need proof reading, then it still goes wrong. I don't think the authors are going to retire and many of the people involved didn't get anything. I have spent less than £20 a year on the rulebooks and they have given me lots of enjoyment. Putting them on pdf will mean the authors get nothing

It would be nice to see Messrs Dalby, Briggs, Fairhurst and Shaw comment here
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by vexillia » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:01 pm

dave_r wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:31 pm
Because if you kill 90% of the enemy and lose nothing of your own you should do better than somebody who has lost 90% of their own army and killed 90% of the opposition?.
With a simple 3-1-0 you will always do better than someone who also drew but suffered more losses, it just won't be reflected in a vastly different number of points but in the "VP for & against" columns. As I'm sure you've said many times size isn't everything. ;-)

This view is the quintessence of the flawed "winning draw" syndrome. It's a oxymoron. Neither player won their game. One did really well but they both drew. Under the current system the first player's score is nearly as good as win; but they drew.

You think the current system better rewards aggressive play, and I'm sure it does, but it also fails to significantly reward players going for an outright win and doing just that.

If you look carefully at the summary of the ADLG system provided above it has distinct bands of scores and a clear boundary between winning and a draw and a draw and losing:

Code: Select all

Win   81-100
Draw  31-58
Lost  10-29
This is in effect a graded 3-1-0 system. A draw is never as good as a win.
dave_r wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:31 pm
No, the primary purpose is to win the competition - this can be achieved by winning or drawing, or even losing.
How pray does one win a competition by losing? Deliberately lose to get a easier 2nd round draw perhaps? Would not be a good strategy under 3-1-0.

Apologies for the large number of edits after the initial posting. They were partly the result of a few technical issues here at Vexillia Towers

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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by philqw78 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:18 pm

You think the current system rewards aggressive play
As shown above it doesn't. It rewards draws
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by madaxeman » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:55 pm

ChrisTofalos wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:09 pm
.... In game two (old system 21-4) the ADLG score was 98-12. I thought the new system's 31-8 was ludicrous until I worked this one out!
Assuming both armies were 10 BGs, breaking the opponent whilst losing 3 BGs yourself would give you an 88-22, as you'd have lost 3 BG's = 6 attrition points, which would be 60% of the way towards your break point of 10.

Not wildly different in absolute terms, but it works out almost exactly like a 3:0 "win" score, as effectively ADLG has a 4/2/1 system rather than a 3/1/0.
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by Intothevalley » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:54 pm

As a scrub usually at the bottom of any competition I actually don't mind the new scoring system. I think this is all psychology - the small number of puny hits I manage to get against my opponent translates into a slightly bigger score than the previous system - I don't mind that my opponent gets proportionately more than me, at least I have points that gets into double figures. If I came away from a 3-1-0 system competition it might be more demoralising for me to have come away with zero points. But then I don't enter competitions to win, I enter to get games and learn stuff and will continue to do so whatever the points system.

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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by davidandlynda » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:02 pm

Since you requested it Phil ,although it isn't going to help.
I don't care what the scoring system is, I've never really checked my score during the competition until the end.My style of play is generally aggressive and doesn''t change for scoring systems.I have enough trouble working it out to worry about play adaption.
I am only interested in a good game win or lose ,if I win the comp fine ,if not ,on to the next one.

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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by notrum » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:46 pm

Well done guys lets really promote ADLG and MeG on this site.

Lets slag off the people who have put the effort into version 3. The authors get f/a out of it for the time put in, but I did get a free book 2 army list.

The scoring system was voted on and accepted, what are we the REMAIN group? Pete D has already mentioned that he was going to review for another vote, which that gives remains another chance.

3/1/0 what a scoring system to finish off FoG. I do not post on this or any site regularly but I see a lot of the posts on this site as negative towards the people who have tried to improve the game.

Our club already has more MeG players than FoG, if we continue down this route I can see myself not bothering with tournaments in 2019.


Steve

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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by philqw78 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:35 am

notrum wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:46 pm
Well done guys lets really promote ADLG and MeG on this site.
Lets slag off the people who have put the effort into version 3. The authors get f/a out of it for the time put in, but I did get a free book 2 army list.
The scoring system was voted on and accepted, what are we the REMAIN group? Pete D has already mentioned that he was going to review for another vote, which that gives remains another chance.
3/1/0 what a scoring system to finish off FoG. I do not post on this or any site regularly but I see a lot of the posts on this site as negative towards the people who have tried to improve the game.
Our club already has more MeG players than FoG, if we continue down this route I can see myself not bothering with tournaments in 2019.
Steve
Were you suffering post match blues or something?
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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by ChrisTofalos » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:22 am

Well done guys lets really promote ADLG and MeG on this site.
Where do you get that from? My only comment about ADLG was the scoring systems looks more bizarre than our new one. What's the point of having a forum for discussions if all aspects aren't covered?
Lets slag off the people who have put the effort into version 3. The authors get f/a out of it for the time put in, but I did get a free book 2 army list.
Version 3 is really Version 2 with a few (albeit very effective) alterations. The draft ran to just four A4 pages and I cannot see why this couldn't have been released as a simple amendment sheet. All negative comments I've heard concern either the cost or expressed reluctance to learn a new set of rules (which V3 certainly isn't). Furthermore, as a PDF it would have been available up to a year earlier and, perhaps, stopped a few changing rule sets.

As for the army lists, personally, I'd rather have properly bound hard copies so perhaps I shouldn't have been critical on this point.
The scoring system was voted on and accepted...
Only by the relatively small and very active numbers on here.
Our club already has more MeG players than FoG,
MAWS is a fairly small club. It has no MeG, one ADLG and two DBMM players. There are about ten regular FOG players. We try to make the FOG comp as interesting as possible (currently three different periods) and the club adopted my suggestion to fund decent prizes for the winners. In the first year this totalled £750 worth of painted and based figures. This was a serious attempt to promote wargaming - and FOG in particular.

This year, however, there are no prizes. I did receive a couple of moans about the same old faces picking up the prizes (which was true enough), even though the entry fee was £5.00. To counter this I introduced a handicap system and, when we get the balance of this right, prizes will be awarded once again.

I believe awarding prizes and introducing a handicap system are two very positive steps to help promote FOG. It would be nice to see other comps follow suit...

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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by petedalby » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:26 pm

It would be nice to see Messrs Dalby, Briggs, Fairhurst and Shaw comment here
I already did Phil - see above. We had a poll. 22 of the 24 respondents voted for a change to the BHGS Scoring system which gives more points for aggressive play rather than defensive play. I emphasise the BHGS bit because we're not forcing it on anyone else.

Belgarum chose to run with their own version as did Campaign. Both were still good fun.

So far we've used it at Roll Call and the Challenge to (afaik) wide spread approval. We'll be using it again at Britcon and we appear to have plenty of entries so no-one has voted with their feet.

If you don't think it is suitable for club games or club competitions then please feel free to do something else. Having used something else that you think works well please share it with the rest of us. I agree whole heatedly with Dave : 3-1-0 gave crap games.

Personally I think V3 gives a much better game than V1 or V2. I think I've lost more games under V3 than I've won because we're all back on a learning curve. What used to be effective no longer is. Wasn't it great to see a Viking Army in the top 3 at Challenge! Compared to the £s we spend on figures and going to events the cost of the new rules and lists is negligible. Banging on about how you think it should have been done just upsets those who spent hours and hours on emails, conference calls and play testing to deliver an improved game.

If I moved to ADLG or MeG (which I currently have no plans to do) I would expect to get beaten regularly for a while. But I would learn from those defeats and get better. FoG is no different in that respect.
Pete

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Re: The new scoring system...

Post by ChrisTofalos » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:55 am

Isn't the answer to poll the players who enter each comp which scoring system they'd prefer; whether a handicap should be used and, in the case of Britcon, whether polearms should be allowed?

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