Britcon table size - time for something new?

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davidandlynda
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Post by davidandlynda » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:13 pm

this is all assuming V2 isn't available,opens up a load more questions .to play V2 or not to
David

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Post by AlanCutner » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:13 pm

On more reflection I'm against a format change for Britcon this year. Its a world championship. So it should be a championship of the current accepted standard format. If format changes then what is the champion a champion of?

Try out format changes at other tournaments. If the change takes hold, then it can be applied to future world championships.

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Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:33 pm

AlanCutner wrote: If format changes then what is the champion a champion of?

A game of toy soldiers whatever the format.
Nik Gaukroger

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Post by philqw78 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:45 pm

AlanCutner wrote:On more reflection I'm against a format change for Britcon this year. Its a world championship. So it should be a championship of the current accepted standard format. If format changes then what is the champion a champion of?
Scotland has a 650 format comp. Use that. Or we could do 25mm, that has an accepted format, so does Rampage. Or is it a particular standard format you want Alan.

BTW I never accepted the 800pt 6x4 Britcon format, but play it because I want to play at Britcon in 15mm.

And this is the FIRST Worlds Championship. So no format has yet been accepted/tested/tried by anyone. The BHGS did agree to host it at Britcon though.
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

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Post by AlanCutner » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:57 pm

The mere fact we're discussing a change from the 'normal' 6'x4' 800pt game tells you its the standard tournament play. Yes, there are other formats played, but they are the exception.

This is not the first World Championship. But even if it was a World Champion should be decided on the generally accepted format. Would you accept a football world cup played to 4 15min quarters when the standard format is 2 45min halves?

Theres no problem experimenting with format in general. Just not suitable for the World Championship.

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Post by philqw78 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:18 pm

Yes it is
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

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Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:39 pm

philqw78 wrote:Yes it is

Quite so. To which I would add that I would hope that a "World Championship" would aim to use a format that would maximise attendance and enjoyment - and I personally think that, given the views expressed currently about FoG:AM, that this would man, for the majority, a different format than 800 points on a 6x4.

In fact I'd actually suggest that the fact that Britcon this year is some sort of toy soldier world championship means diddly squat to most of the players - they just want the best 6 games they can get, and that is the bottom line that needs catering for.
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muz177
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changed format

Post by muz177 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:55 am

We changed our Australian championship format this year, from the previously accepted 800 pts on 6x4 to 650pts on 5x3. The NZ National comp in April is also going to this format.

There was extensive discussion and angst before the comp about the change, and the numbers attending were quite heavily reduced (not necessarily by the change - some played FoGR, some couldn't get holidays, some played FoW etc).

The comp itself was very enjoyable, and everyone played in good spirit and liked the changed format. It did encourage foot based armies, and I don't think anyone was ever going to beat the Swiss, even when not played by Shaun. So ost armies were either pike or spear based, or Roman. However, that also encouraged good movement and positioning, and there were lots of army breaks.

I would encourage people not to get too caught up in the name of the event, as stated before, most people want to go to play a range of people they haven't played much before, not to be crowned world champion. I think the variety in games offered allows a greater variety of armies, and for people to then enjoy thinking about the particular one they believe might triumph.

muz

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Post by dave_r » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:56 am

Im going to have a practice next week using a 5' table. Will see how it goes
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Post by stenic » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:01 am

AlanCutner wrote:On more reflection I'm against a format change for Britcon this year. Its a world championship. So it should be a championship of the current accepted standard format. If format changes then what is the champion a champion of?

Try out format changes at other tournaments. If the change takes hold, then it can be applied to future world championships.
The nature of true champions is that they get on and play well irrespective of changed conditions... Notice how if any one bleats about the conditions it's the loser :twisted:

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Post by grahambriggs » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:49 am

AlanCutner wrote:The mere fact we're discussing a change from the 'normal' 6'x4' 800pt game tells you its the standard tournament play. Yes, there are other formats played, but they are the exception.

This is not the first World Championship. But even if it was a World Champion should be decided on the generally accepted format. Would you accept a football world cup played to 4 15min quarters when the standard format is 2 45min halves?

Theres no problem experimenting with format in general. Just not suitable for the World Championship.
The rules are not being changed. And they allow varied table dimensions.

And so does FIFA for football world cups. Their rules for the size of the pitch for international matches are:

Length:
minimum 100 m (110 yds)
maximum 110 m (120 yds)

Width:
minimum 64 m (70 yds)
maximum 75 m (80 yds)

I would vote for a move away from the dreary 800 on 6x4.

Alternatively, since Britcon table arrangements tend to be in multiples of 6 foot lengths, and option would be to have 5,6, and 7 foot widths mixed in. That would make players give it some thought.

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Post by peteratjet » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:33 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:
philqw78 wrote:But surely both of you, Dr Gaukroger and Mr Bodley-Scot, are talking about FoG R since that is what you will be playing.
Nope. FOGR is fine as it is. And yes, I will.

Indeed FoG:R works fine with 800 points and 6x4 tables, however, FoG:AM needs a bit of help.
Actually, FoGR has a very specific problem with tables that are only approximately 4 feet deep. The vastly increased range of artillery in FoGR means that it can fire directly into the enemy deployment zone , but arbitrary variations in the table depth can brings things into range, or out of it, which feels wrong. The simple solution would be to define the deployment zone in terms of distance from the centre-line.

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Post by rich » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:57 pm

Last year Skilled Sword was excluded from the Devizes competition.

Wasn't there an opportunity to trial any format changes at Attack
this year instead of launching it at Britcon?

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Post by david53 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:29 pm

rich wrote:Last year Skilled Sword was excluded from the Devizes competition.

Wasn't there an opportunity to trial any format changes at Attack
this year instead of launching it at Britcon?
Of course that depends on the entry size at Attack

There is no reason why Britcon can't change the table sizes its not written in stone.

A change in table size IMO will spice the game up if it carries on 6 by 4 tables we'll lose even more players from fog am.

Dave

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Post by petedalby » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:20 am

I've just caught up on this and I think a move to a smaller table for Britcon would be a great idea. It would change the dynamic and make different armies viable.

I'd be surprised if V2 was an option at this late stage.

900AP doesn't really change things - still too much room, and as others have mentioned slower players might struggle - and of course some may not have enough toys.

A great suggestion Nik - I hope that it is accepted and that other comps follow suit.
Pete

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Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:59 am

petedalby wrote:
A great suggestion Nik - I hope that it is accepted and that other comps follow suit.

Thanks :)

Up to the Britcon team now, however, Hammy seems to be receptive to looking at the issue. If I am involved in the set up of any comps in the future I'll certainly be looking at varying the table size and/or points for variety - and when V2 comes out I don't think that should mean 6x4 800 points has to be used either.
Nik Gaukroger

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Post by babyshark » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:37 pm

On the issue of finishing games / slow players for 900 point games, my experience at Cold Wars has been that there is no decrease in the number of games that finish. There are always some players who simply move slowly. No reasonable change in point levels or table size will make a difference for them.

I prefer 900 points on a 6x4 table because it still leaves room for pre-contact maneuvering, which is one of the most enjoyable parts of the game. As the table depth decreases the possibilities for maneuver similarly decrease (which is sort of the point of decreasing the table depth).

Marc

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Post by davesaunders23 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:41 pm

can i please throw my ten pence worth in for 900pts on 6'x4' tables.

really is my preferred game. much better.

certainly not 650pts. dull.

dave.

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Post by rich » Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:07 pm

No matter what the size table light troops are hard to catch or shoot away by heavy troops. Why not give skirmishers -1 on death roles instead of -2 then they wouldn’t just sit in front of my longbow and hold me up all game. Give the heavy troops more weight in bow fire.

Rich

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Post by david53 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:04 pm

rich wrote:No matter what the size table light troops are hard to catch or shoot away by heavy troops. Why not give skirmishers -1 on death roles instead of -2 then they wouldn’t just sit in front of my longbow and hold me up all game. Give the heavy troops more weight in bow fire.

Rich
Thought V2 was over, would'nt your mf just love less table for the lf to hide in.

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