Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

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ChrisTofalos
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Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by ChrisTofalos » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:35 pm

Although there was a vote for the adoption of the new 35-0 scoring system at the start of the year some players, including myself, missed the post completely and didn't get the chance to either air their views or vote. Now that we have a Players' Association, with a growing number of members, I'd like to propose another vote which, hopefully, will attract a larger number of voters.

I've already expressed my views on the subject in a previous (post-vote!) post. I wasn't that keen on the 25-0 system but firmly believe the 35-0 one has gone too far. Proponents of the system argue that it's meant to encourage aggression. Poppycock! DBMX players don't seem to need such ego-boosting scorelines and MeG's system works well enough with a modest 15 points maximum. Are we saying players of other rule sets are naturally more aggressive than FOG's? Obviously not.

The problem with such exaggerated scores is we're forgetting about the players on the receiving end. I've argued before that walloping less experienced players will lead to many of them dropping out and had various replies rubbishing my claim. Well, I've done a quick check of the recently published ADLG rankings and compared them with a 2015 listing for FOG. Of the current top 50 ADLG players no fewer than 24 were listed as playing FOG in 2015. Significantly, 22 of those 24 have higher rankings than they did with FOG - in ten cases improvements from 69th to 156th into ADLG's top 50. So, we're losing players to ADLG and they're doing better into the bargain. I wonder what that tells us?

Nik Gaukroger has previously suggested:
IMO (and lets face it its all anecdotal) the thing that puts people off comps the most is not losing to a more experienced player, or by how much they lose to them, but where they lose because the experienced payer is able to leverage a loophole or quirk of the rules that appears to them to be gamesmanship/cheese/or even cheating. Being beaten fair and square by a better/more experienced player is not an issue.
That's a sad indictment of competition play but, surely, losing 35-0 instead of 25-0 can hardly help?

The other thing that puzzles me about FOG's scoring system is that points conceded aren't taken into account at all. General Greedy says "Let's grab as many points as possible, never mind the cost!" Don't most real life generals want to minimise their own casualties as well as inflicting more on the enemy? Wouldn't points difference (as in many sporting leagues, such as football) be more sensible, rather than encouraging 'Pyrrhic' victories?

Lots to debate but please remember, we need to keep as many players as possible playing FOG. Battering the less experienced won't help give us a brighter future. Now, I'll no doubt get caned for being negative, but a brighter future is my sole motivation...

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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by madaxeman » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:21 pm

ChrisTofalos wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:35 pm
The problem with such exaggerated scores is we're forgetting about the players on the receiving end. I've argued before that walloping less experienced players will lead to many of them dropping out and had various replies rubbishing my claim. Well, I've done a quick check of the recently published ADLG rankings and compared them with a 2015 listing for FOG. Of the current top 50 ADLG players no fewer than 24 were listed as playing FOG in 2015. Significantly, 22 of those 24 have higher rankings than they did with FOG - in ten cases improvements from 69th to 156th into ADLG's top 50. So, we're losing players to ADLG and they're doing better into the bargain. I wonder what that tells us?
The 2015 FoG rankings included many players who had already stopped playing FoG, and who's ranking was plummeting month by month as a result of the number of eligible competitions they had entered dropping below the minimum needed for a "full " ranking. Down at the 150's you are looking at players who only entered one event in the previous 12 months, and even a list of "top 50" FoG players in 2015 includes a fair number of players with only 2-3 tournament entries to their names in the previous 12 months. I think there therefore is a strong argument to be made that there is almost no correlation between "ability" and "ranking" once you get outside the top 20-odd places in the 2015 FoG rankings - number of events entered is far more important once you get into the 30th's and beyond.

What this probably tells us therefore is that the most active FoG players back in 2015 have proved to be more likely to play the new version of FoG compared to people who played less often or who had already stopped playing FoG in competitions back in 2015.

Being thumped by better players at FoG is still going to happen as the better players are still, well, better players. The number of points awarded in the the scoring system however seems unlikely to have anything to do with it.
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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by vexillia » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:38 pm

I'll get my popcorn. :-)

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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by philqw78 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:17 pm

In the new system people will score more points
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by ChrisTofalos » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:32 pm

I'll get my popcorn. :-)
Ha ha! 😀

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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by ChrisTofalos » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:45 pm

In the new system people will score more points
And have even more scored against them...

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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by grahambriggs » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:42 pm

I don't have a strong preference but I think the move to a 35-0 system encourages players to be more aggressive in army choice and use, so would favour keeping it. I am a novice player of MEG and aside from "what does it take to break the other player's army?" I don't care how many points I score. I know better players will beat me, and I can tell from the damage I do whether I have put up a decent fight or not. I don't much care about how the numbers work. I was the same in my first few FOG competitions.

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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by ChrisTofalos » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:04 am

I don't have a strong preference but I think the move to a 35-0 system encourages players to be more aggressive in army choice and use, so would favour keeping it.
You're a very successful player, Graham, so whatever scoring system is used is almost irrelevant (although, given you pipped Paul Bartlett for Britcon by just two points, it would be interesting to know what the result would have been using the 25-0 system).

The point I'm trying to make is we need to give more consideration to the less experienced, so they don't get too disheartened by exaggerated, heavy defeats. Keep on battering them in the search for yet more and more points and we might lose them, and I don't think anyone wants that.

FOG V3 is great improvement over the previous version. We've got a set of rules that is certainly more fun and which allows large battles to be fought in a shorter time, giving it a visual appeal not matched by its main rival. Let's try and build on that.

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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by ChrisTofalos » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:57 am

The 2015 FoG rankings included many players who had already stopped playing FoG, and who's ranking was plummeting month by month as a result of the number of eligible competitions they had entered dropping below the minimum needed for a "full " ranking. Down at the 150's you are looking at players who only entered one event in the previous 12 months, and even a list of "top 50" FoG players in 2015 includes a fair number of players with only 2-3 tournament entries to their names in the previous 12 months. I think there therefore is a strong argument to be made that there is almost no correlation between "ability" and "ranking" once you get outside the top 20-odd places in the 2015 FoG rankings - number of events entered is far more important once you get into the 30th's and beyond.

What this probably tells us therefore is that the most active FoG players back in 2015 have proved to be more likely to play the new version of FoG compared to people who played less often or who had already stopped playing FoG in competitions back in 2015.

Being thumped by better players at FoG is still going to happen as the better players are still, well, better players. The number of points awarded in the the scoring system however seems unlikely to have anything to do with it.
I've come to rely on you to try to pour cold water on my numerous attempts, both on here and Facebook, to improve matters in the FOG community, Tim. I suppose I shouldn't expect any less. You are, after all, a committed ADLG and ex-FOG enthusiast. But some of the 'logic' you rely on is suspect - at the very best.

Let's look at the first part of your response:
The 2015 FoG rankings included many players who had already stopped playing FoG, and who's ranking was plummeting month by month as a result of the number of eligible competitions they had entered dropping below the minimum needed for a "full " ranking.
OK, forget 2015. I've now looked at the very first FOG ranking table, from April 2012. The facts and figures are even worse than the 2015 ones I quoted. No fewer than 30 of the current ADLG top 50 are ex-FOG. 28 of these have improved table positions over their FOG ones and almost HALF have improved from positions outside the top 100. What this irrefutably shows is that a large proportion of the most successful ADLG players are ex-FOG players - and they're doing much better into the bargain.

Someone with the best interests of FOG in mind might ask why this has happened and what can be done to reverse the trend, instead of trying to poke holes in the argument.

You finish off with:
The number of points awarded in the the scoring system however seems unlikely to have anything to do with it
How do you come to that conclusion? Isn't being thumped 35-0 worse than 25-0? And are players on the receiving end actually going to be pleased about that? I think not!

I can say I've got the best interests of FOG at heart and am trying to do my best to promote the rule set. Can you?

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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by prb4 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:37 am

OK, forget 2015. I've now looked at the very first FOG ranking table, from April 2012. The facts and figures are even worse than the 2015 ones I quoted. No fewer than 30 of the current ADLG top 50 are ex-FOG. 28 of these have improved table positions over their FOG ones and almost HALF have improved from positions outside the top 100. What this irrefutably shows is that a large proportion of the most successful ADLG players are ex-FOG players - and they're doing much better into the bargain.
Actually I tend to agree with Tim, this kind of analysis is flawed. You aren't comparing like with like.
If we start with the best 50 players all playing FOG and getting a ranking score.
If 25 of those then leave (probably more from the lower half than the upper half) and go to a new rule set and get a ranking score it shouldn't be a surprise that the average ranking improves as they are playing against a smaller selection of "good" players.

The new scoring system encourages aggressive play. If you kill more you get more points, as a winner or a looser.
I have thought for a while that what stops some players from improving further is the desire to not loose. They play very defensive and try to stay alive. Under the old system this got you 8 to 12 points and you finished middleish in the table. However playing like this doesn't teach you how to win.
The new scoring system will reward those new players who play to win, they might still loose but they will be rewarded for trying to win.
Eventually those new players will start to win.

So in summary, I think it is possible that the new scoring system will actual help to encourage new players as their efforts even when loosing will be rewarded.

Peter

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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by madaxeman » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:35 pm

ChrisTofalos wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:57 am
OK, forget 2015. I've now looked at the very first FOG ranking table, from April 2012. The facts and figures are even worse than the 2015 ones I quoted. No fewer than 30 of the current ADLG top 50 are ex-FOG. 28 of these have improved table positions over their FOG ones and almost HALF have improved from positions outside the top 100. What this irrefutably shows is that a large proportion of the most successful ADLG players are ex-FOG players - and they're doing much better into the bargain.
In your analysis you are suggesting that players who were outside the top 100 in FoG are now doing better in ADLG, and your hypothesis is that that this may be down to the scoring system encouraging historically weaker players. I'm suggesting that your logic here may be a little flawed, and therefore you may be coming to the wrong conclusions about what to do as a result.

As well as my suggestion that rankings outside the top 30-odd are pretty meaningless as a measure of competence anyway, if you are looking at players in the lower reaches of the rankings you need to bear in mind that the 2012 FoG rankings featured 261 players, and the current ADLG ranking feature only 183 players. That means there are 78 players (pretty much half of all players in your "outside the top 100" category) from the lower reaches of the 2012 FoG rankings who, assuming they moved from FoG to ADLG, mathematically cannot fail to have a better ranking in ADLG than they did in FoG. So, if as you say...
ChrisTofalos wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:57 am
..almost HALF have improved from positions outside the top 100
... your data actually suggests that there has been no improvement in ranking positions among players who have swapped from FoG to ADLG, as half of them could not fail to improve even if they all ended up joint bottom of the current ADLG rankings - the exact opposite of what you have concluded.


I can say I've got the best interests of FOG at heart and am trying to do my best to promote the rule set. Can you?
Yes. I might have a different view as to how to do it to you, but I'd happily stand by what I said in this thread viewtopic.php?f=55&t=86523&start=140 any day of teh week.
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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by ChrisTofalos » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:44 pm

this kind of analysis is flawed. You aren't comparing like with like.
I am comparing like with like. I've looked at the current top 50 ADLG players and found 30 of them appear in the 2012 FOG rankings. They're the same players from both lists...

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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by ChrisTofalos » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:47 pm

I can say I've got the best interests of FOG at heart and am trying to do my best to promote the rule set. Can you?
Yes.
Now I know you're pulling my leg!

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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by madaxeman » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:48 pm

prb4 wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:37 am
The new scoring system encourages aggressive play. If you kill more you get more points, as a winner or a looser.
I have thought for a while that what stops some players from improving further is the desire to not loose. They play very defensive and try to stay alive. Under the old system this got you 8 to 12 points and you finished middleish in the table. However playing like this doesn't teach you how to win.
The new scoring system will reward those new players who play to win, they might still loose but they will be rewarded for trying to win.
Eventually those new players will start to win.

So in summary, I think it is possible that the new scoring system will actual help to encourage new players as their efforts even when loosing will be rewarded.

Peter
It's also worth stating that both MeG* and ADLG feature scoring systems that are structured exactly like this - heavily incentivising a win over a draw, and with the loser scoring points for how much of the enemy army they kill.

It seems rather counter intuitive therefore to suggest that players are leaving FoG for other systems partly (or entirely) because they dislike the new FoG scoring system, given that it essentially mirrors the principles of those of the systems players have migrated to....



(* Admittedly I'm not 100% sure on this. Based on the scores handed into Kevin and I at Britcon, both of us suspect that the core principle of the MeG system is that Alasdair Harley always scores 15, and everyone else gets allocated a random number between 0 and 15)
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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by nikgaukroger » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:30 pm

ChrisTofalos wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:35 pm

Nik Gaukroger has previously suggested:
IMO (and lets face it its all anecdotal) the thing that puts people off comps the most is not losing to a more experienced player, or by how much they lose to them, but where they lose because the experienced payer is able to leverage a loophole or quirk of the rules that appears to them to be gamesmanship/cheese/or even cheating. Being beaten fair and square by a better/more experienced player is not an issue.
That's a sad indictment of competition play but, surely, losing 35-0 instead of 25-0 can hardly help?

If I may I will just reiterate that I really don't think it matters what the numbers are, and so 25-0 or 35-0 is pretty immaterial - that is certainly my view from my experiences at comps over the years and also when organising for quite a few years as well. Whilst you are clearly off put, I think you are unusual in this.

Now, I'll no doubt get caned for being negative, but a brighter future is my sole motivation...
I'm sure it is, however, it always seems to me that you actually just come across as being negative :?

Maybe you would be better advised to just post and publicise the things which are going well and improving (like the sponsorship you have previously mentioned) rather than the things you don't like? Lets face it, once again the post attracting most input/attention is a negative one :(
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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by nikgaukroger » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:37 pm

madaxeman wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:48 pm
(* Admittedly I'm not 100% sure on this. Based on the scores handed into Kevin and I at Britcon, both of us suspect that the core principle of the MeG system is that Alasdair Harley always scores 15, and everyone else gets allocated a random number between 0 and 15)
FWIW the MeG scoring system is, IIRC:

If you break your opponents army - 15 points regardless of your own losses.

Otherwise you score 2 points per enemy TuG (battle troops in FoG) broken, 1 point for each enemy SuG (skirmisher) unit broken, and 2 points if your army is unbroken (or mutual break IIRC) - with a maximum of 10 points


As, even if you are going down, damaging the enemy gets you points it seems to work quite well in encouraging action.

I don't believe the actual numbers involved are important, probably the important thing is that even if you lose (are broken) you can get 2/3 the amount of points that the winner does (i.e. 10 compared to 15).
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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by grahambriggs » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:34 pm

ChrisTofalos wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:04 am
I don't have a strong preference but I think the move to a 35-0 system encourages players to be more aggressive in army choice and use, so would favour keeping it.
You're a very successful player, Graham, so whatever scoring system is used is almost irrelevant (although, given you pipped Paul Bartlett for Britcon by just two points, it would be interesting to know what the result would have been using the 25-0 system).

The point I'm trying to make is we need to give more consideration to the less experienced, so they don't get too disheartened by exaggerated, heavy defeats. Keep on battering them in the search for yet more and more points and we might lose them, and I don't think anyone wants that.

FOG V3 is great improvement over the previous version. We've got a set of rules that is certainly more fun and which allows large battles to be fought in a shorter time, giving it a visual appeal not matched by its main rival. Let's try and build on that.
I may be successful in FOG now, but we all start as beginners. So please don't discount my view, particularly as I'm currently a beginner in MEG and know what it feels like.

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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by grahambriggs » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:38 pm

ChrisTofalos wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:47 pm
I can say I've got the best interests of FOG at heart and am trying to do my best to promote the rule set. Can you?
Yes.
Now I know you're pulling my leg!
Chris this isn't Us vs Them. Tim does a great deal of work to help all rule sets by running the BHGS, Britcon and the rest. Just because he plays one rule set because he prefers it doesn't mean he doesn't want the others to succeed.

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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by dave_r » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:13 pm

I could have sworn we'd already had this discussion?

It's deja vu all over again.
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Re: Scoring system for 2019 - Call for a vote...

Post by ChrisTofalos » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:49 pm

When I started playing in FOG comps at the end of 2014 there were heading for 200 players in the FOG rankings. Now there are less than 70. I find that an alarming trend and, in the absence of any apparent effective action to try and reverse that, have made several posts, suggesting what might be done to help. What do I get in return?
I'm sure it is, however, it always seems to me that you actually just come across as being negative :?
Apart from Martin Stephenson and Phil Powell, who have both shown open minds when it comes to discussing possible improvements, I get nothing but complaints and opposition, especially from the FOG-AM 'establishment'. There have been some improvements since Version 3 came out but, overall, we're fighting a losing battle when it comes to player numbers. if nothing is done the FOG community will eventually disappear up its own backside (and it's well and truly heading that way if players like Graham Briggs are trying out MeG!). Who wants that?

You think I'm negative, Nik. I can assure you I'm doing positive things to try and improve matters. I've run the FOG competition at MAWS since 2014. I got Lancashire Games to sponsor the event and, with the club's help, valuable prizes have been played for, which is in stark contrast to what's usually on offer at other comps. A handicap system and points difference (rather than just those scored) have been introduced to try and give the less experienced players a chance (and, hopefully, encourage them to keep playing). I've managed to just about keep the numbers up and FOG is played at the club more than any other period/rule set. I started the FOG-AM page on Facebook, press-ganging in as many friends as I could as members, to try and make it a successful launch. I wrote a review on V3 and posted it on at least half a dozen wargame related Facebook pages and TMP. Whenever there's good news (like the recent apparent increase in player numbers) I similarly post it on Facebook, often drawing criticism from Tim Porter, who conveniently ignores it when his remarks are successfully rebuffed (what's an ADLG advocate doing on here, other than trying to rubbish genuine attempts to improve FOG's position? :roll: ). I proposed the idea of a Players' Association and, thankfully, Pete Dalby saw the possible benefits and has got the thing off the ground. And I approached Forged in Battle for sponsorship, to which they agreed. Pete completed the deal and is getting some prizes for a comp he's organising, which I'm sure the winners will appreciate.

I hope the above has shown my positive commitment to FOG. I want - and am doing my best - to improve all things FOG-related. And if I see something that's wrong I try to do something about it. So, you won't get any apologies from me if I continue to rock the boat. I'm disappointed I don't get more support but, perhaps, those who tend to agree with me are a bit worried about the the avalanche of criticism they'll trigger! :-(

IMO, the current FOG formula for competitions is seriously flawed. The scoring system has received a 'boost' in the form of a points system which, overall, rewards the already successful. General Greedy (Ha ha!) says I want more (and more!) points so let's double everything up. And for goodness sake, let's not deduct the points I conceded from my total. I won't look as good then!

Adopting a REASONABLE points system, with points difference rather than points scored (encouraging sensible generalship, rather the 'improved' aggression we're supposed to need), might actually help improve matters. Let's face it, we're all going to be using the same system, so the better players are still probably going to win anyway. But the less experienced might just feel less humiliated and hang on in there until they gain that required experience (and, in the meantime, a handicap system would also help). Not forgetting decent prizes!

When did suggesting improvements become negative?

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