Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by Adebar » Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:50 pm

toska wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:00 pm
Don't worry, making a mod on that aspect is very easy.
Ah, now I see myself working with the FOG2 Ancient tiles and texture files for days and weeks, making a Winter or even a 4 Seasons mod - again. Believe me, Toska, it's not that easy at all. I'd rather skip that.
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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by Lukew » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:27 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:58 pm
FOG2 Medieval does use a scaling system to ensure that armies are suitably sized for the historical period and region. Most western feudal armies are scaled to 50% of base unit size, whereas further east some armies use 100% scaling and some (e.g. Mongols) even higher. If two armies with different scaling meet in a custom battle, the average of the two scaling factors is used for both sides. This representing the side with lower manpower having to pull out all of the stops to be able to meet the side with larger manpower at all in open battle.

Consequently, the number of men represented by each unit varies from one theatre of battle to another. This system was already used in the Epic Battles and historically-based Campaigns in FOG2: Ancients, but has been extended to Custom Battles in FOG2: Medieval to avoid unrealistic numbers appearing in "normal" western Medieval battles.

The scaling does not affect actual gameplay, apart from the reported number of men and casualties. (Realistically, of course, it should, as it changes the ratio between unit frontage and shooting ranges, but we did not want to get into the complexities of having different rules for scaled battles).
I believe this is also possible in FOGII but I cannot recall how to do it. An easier method might be an option to select a figure scale in custom battles, scenarios etc eg 1:5, 1:10, 1:20, 1:30 etc, Definitely agree with the importance of avoiding unrealistic numbers but there were big battles such as Bouvines, Hattin, Arsuf. It would also be nice to fight battles on that scale with smaller scale units giving the option of a game with a good tactical feel combined with an epic scale look. Even smaller battles on the small unit scale could still look good this way, I like the possibilities of armies with different scaling meeting particularly when gaming the Crusades

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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by pinwolf » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:54 pm

Adebar wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:50 pm
toska wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:00 pm
Don't worry, making a mod on that aspect is very easy.
...Believe me, Toska, it's not that easy at all. I'd rather skip that.
Just use ReShade.

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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by Veles » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:34 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:27 pm
Athos1660 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:01 pm
Cavalry mounted crossbowmen ? Nice.
So AP=16 and not unmanoeuvrable ? Fast and agile non-light cavalry for flanking... ?
Will there be lots of this unit or is it a rare unit ?
Not very numerous at present, though there will be more of them in post-1319 Polish armies.
Good to know. Later Teutonic Order lists also should have them BTW, I know it is a bit early to ask but how will you implement them? I don't think that mounted crossbowmen were present as separate units before the late XV century. So I guess that later Teutonic and Polish lists should have mixed 50/50 knights/mounted crossbowmen units. Correct?

Also, I noticed that Teutonic Armies have units dressed in white wappenrocks with black crosses. These colors were only reserved for the Ritterbruders, regular Dienstmänner were dressed in grey with Teutonic crosses on their chests (Teutonic cross has the shape of the letter "T").

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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by Patrick Ward » Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:55 am

Veles wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:34 pm
rbodleyscott wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:27 pm
Athos1660 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:01 pm
Cavalry mounted crossbowmen ? Nice.
So AP=16 and not unmanoeuvrable ? Fast and agile non-light cavalry for flanking... ?
Will there be lots of this unit or is it a rare unit ?
Not very numerous at present, though there will be more of them in post-1319 Polish armies.
Good to know. Later Teutonic Order lists also should have them BTW, I know it is a bit early to ask but how will you implement them? I don't think that mounted crossbowmen were present as separate units before the late XV century. So I guess that later Teutonic and Polish lists should have mixed 50/50 knights/mounted crossbowmen units. Correct?

Also, I noticed that Teutonic Armies have units dressed in white wappenrocks with black crosses. These colors were only reserved for the Ritterbruders, regular Dienstmänner were dressed in grey with Teutonic crosses on their chests (Teutonic cross has the shape of the letter "T").
We do have both though there are more Ritterbruders than Dienstmanner and the random unit creation can often give you a unit entirely of Ritterbruders. I might consider changing the ratios. Do you have any more accurate information? If so can we move this to the proper FoG forum.

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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by Veles » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:11 am

Well yes. According to my sources like "State of the Teutonic Order in Prussia" by prof. Marian Biskup Ritterbruders were never particularly numerous within the Teutonic Strate (couple hundred brothers tops, about 300-350 in the first half of the XIV century according to PhD. Piotr Strzyż) and they were torn between military and administrative duties. Therefore, they composed the minority in Teutonic armies, especially in bigger battles, usually serving in commanding roles within banners rather than being the main force. It of course depends on the time period but in later battles, the majority of their forces were composed of Dienstmanner (Servientes). At the turn of XIII and XIV centuries, Servierntes were then times as numerous as Ritterbruders (Source: Battle of Płowce 1331 by Piotr Strzyż), then there were feudal knights (often of Polish ethnicity), Prussian levies (up to the mid-XIV century, after that they lost most of their original identity) and finally Crusaders or "Guest Knights" from Western Europe.

As for Prussian levies, we have quite a lot of information about their arms and armor thanks to iconography and written sources. They were referred to as kleine Freie (small freemen) to distinguish them from feudal knights that were referred to as grosse Freie. We know that they served mostly on foot as spearmen and as for their equipment they used torso-sized Prussian style pavises referred to in Teutonic sources as scutum Pruthenicum or prusche schilde. I believe I noticed in the screenshots that you already have models for these shields. I believe I noticed Hungarian cavalry armed with them ( a bit weird but perhaps you have sources for that). On top of that Prussians sometimes used mail or scale armor. Probably the latter type of protective equipment was referred to in the sources as bronye or brogne.

It's just a quick summary. I can go deeper and provide a list of primary and secondary sources. Including iconography.

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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by Lukew » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:50 am


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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by toska » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:37 am

Adebar wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:50 pm
toska wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:00 pm
Don't worry, making a mod on that aspect is very easy.
Ah, now I see myself working with the FOG2 Ancient tiles and texture files for days and weeks, making a Winter or even a 4 Seasons mod - again. Believe me, Toska, it's not that easy at all. I'd rather skip that.

I was only referring to the replacement of textures and vegetal models from FOGII anciets to Medieval. I have no doubt that creating new things involves a lot of work.

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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by Paul59 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:14 am

Veles wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:11 am
I believe I noticed in the screenshots that you already have models for these shields. I believe I noticed Hungarian cavalry armed with them ( a bit weird but perhaps you have sources for that).
Hi Veles,

I'm not sure why you think that is weird? It's just a small kite or almond shaped shield, that according to Ian Heath's "Armies of Feudal Europe" was common throughout Eastern Europe, see his illustration of a Hungarian cavalryman for example;

Image


cheers

Paul
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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by Adebar » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:32 am

toska wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:37 am
I was only referring to the replacement of textures and vegetal models from FOGII anciets to Medieval.
Yes, perhaps this might work. Creating a new winter tile set based on the Ancient tiles and textures would be inevitable though.

I'll check as soon as I have the game (apart from all my whining :wink: this is of course an instant buy for me).
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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by Veles » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:41 am

Paul59 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:14 am
Veles wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:11 am
I believe I noticed in the screenshots that you already have models for these shields. I believe I noticed Hungarian cavalry armed with them ( a bit weird but perhaps you have sources for that).
Hi Veles,

I'm not sure why you think that is weird? It's just a small kite or almond shaped shield, that according to Ian Heath's "Armies of Feudal Europe" was common throughout Eastern Europe, see his illustration of a Hungarian cavalryman for example;


cheers

Paul
Ian Heath is not very reliable most of the time when portraying the history of Central and Eastern Europe, unfortunately. I meant a rectangular shield with the curved central portion, as shown in one of the screenshots in the twitch stream, that originated in Prussia. It looked like this:
Image
I noticed these shields in hands of Hungarian cavalrymen in the later part of the stream linked in this topic.

They initially were used by Prussians and Lithuanians and other Baltic people then they get popular among Teutonic Knights in the XIV century (who used smaller cavalry versions) and to be finally adopted by Poles and other Central-Eastern Europeans in XV century.

Almond and later triangular-shaped shields were indeed common across this part of Europe

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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by Paul59 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:39 pm

Veles wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:41 am

Ian Heath is not very reliable most of the time when portraying the history of Central and Eastern Europe, unfortunately. I meant a rectangular shield with the curved central portion, as shown in one of the screenshots in the twitch stream, that originated in Prussia. It looked like this:
Image
I noticed these shields in hands of Hungarian cavalrymen in the later part of the stream linked in this topic.

They initially were used by Prussians and Lithuanians and other Baltic people then they get popular among Teutonic Knights in the XIV century (who used smaller cavalry versions) and to be finally adopted by Poles and other Central-Eastern Europeans in XV century.

Almond and later triangular-shaped shields were indeed common across this part of Europe
The rectangular shield is used by protected and light Eastern European cavalrymen in the game.

To be fair, Heath depicts the rectangular shield frequently in Armies of The Middle Ages vol2 in the hands of Lithuanians, Germans, Hussites and Teutonic knights etc. I was not aware that he was not reliable regarding Eastern Europe, have you any evidence on that?
Field of Glory II Scenario Designer - Age of Belisarius, Rise of Persia, and Wolves at the Gate.

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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by Veles » Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:47 pm

Paul59 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:39 pm
The rectangular shield is used by protected and light Eastern European cavalrymen in the game.

To be fair, Heath depicts the rectangular shield frequently in Armies of The Middle Ages vol2 in the hands of Lithuanians, Germans, Hussites and Teutonic knights etc. I was not aware that he was not reliable regarding Eastern Europe, have you any evidence on that?
The problem is I don't recall any sources that could confirm the prevalence of such shields around whole Eastern Europe, especially not before the mid-XIV century. Maybe Hungarians through the contact with Venice and Italians at large adopted Western pavises but I would have to check that. Generally speaking, before XIV century Baltic pavises should only appear in hands of Baltic people.

Well in his "Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300" in part devoted to Poland page 41 he makes mistakes already in the first sentence claiming that Bloeslav I was crowned in 1024 (he was crowned and established the Kingdom of Poland in 1025). And that just the beginning of the whole plethora of mistakes. He wrongly claims that druzhinas started as the king's personal retinue to later form a semi-professional army station around the country. Except in many ways, it was the other way around. He also claims that the Boleslav's druzhina was said to amount, 20 000 men, and I have no idea from where the hell he took that from since Gesta Principum Polonorum specify their number an approximately 5000-6000 thousand which is considered by scholars to be a credible number.

Then Heath claims that druzhina and leaves were organized in the decimal system. The problem is we don't have any sources that could confirm that. It is generally believed that druzhina was organized in triples, not tens.

Similar mistakes appear constantly in all parts devoted to Eastern European countries. On top of often mistranslations and typos. In the chapter about important battles of the period, he gives either very outdated or unfounded numbers for combatants (like in Battle of LegnicaLegnitz where he estimates Mongols army to be 100k strong which is absolute nonsense).

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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:10 pm

Veles wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:47 pm
Paul59 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:39 pm
The rectangular shield is used by protected and light Eastern European cavalrymen in the game.

To be fair, Heath depicts the rectangular shield frequently in Armies of The Middle Ages vol2 in the hands of Lithuanians, Germans, Hussites and Teutonic knights etc. I was not aware that he was not reliable regarding Eastern Europe, have you any evidence on that?
The problem is I don't recall any sources that could confirm the prevalence of such shields around whole Eastern Europe, especially not before the mid-XIV century. Maybe Hungarians through the contact with Venice and Italians at large adopted Western pavises but I would have to check that. Generally speaking, before XIV century Baltic pavises should only appear in hands of Baltic people.
Indeed, but unfortunately we do not have the resources of budget or art time for each nation to have several different models for the same troop type in different parts of the Medieval period.

In the case of knights, we are going to have 3 different periods of armour, although of course in reality armour constantly evolved throughout the period.

It is not that we are unaware of the development of equipment in various regions, but given the constraints we have to accept that some of the models won't be strictly accurate for the whole of the period in which they are used.
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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by Veles » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:53 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:10 pm

Indeed, but unfortunately we do not have the resources of budget or art time for each nation to have several different models for the same troop type in different parts of the Medieval period.

In the case of knights, we are going to have 3 different periods of armour, although of course in reality armour constantly evolved throughout the period.

It is not that we are unaware of the development of equipment in various regions, but given the constraints we have to accept that some of the models won't be strictly accurate for the whole of the period in which they are used.
Yeah, I am aware. Despite this, you guys still make great games, and this is the only thing that matters.
Besides, three types of armour for knights in this time span sounds reasonable enough and the maps look great.

BTW, little suggestions if I may. I know that making separate models for every faction is out of the question but have you guys thought about at least giving them regional names when possible? Look at earlier Total War games where many identical units had different names which made it look like there is a greater variety of units than there really is.
Having Polish or Rus cavalry named "Druzhina" rather than just "Armoured Cavalry" makes the game more immersive. Not that it is a huge deal but I think it would be a welcome change. Different naming conventions present in FoG 2 made it more interesting in comparison with P&S for example. At least for me.

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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:13 pm

Veles wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:53 pm
BTW, little suggestions if I may. I know that making separate models for every faction is out of the question but have you guys thought about at least giving them regional names when possible? Look at earlier Total War games where many identical units had different names which made it look like there is a greater variety of units than there really is.
We can look at a doing a bit more of that, but I do dislike having too many cloned units just so they can have a different names, so I try to minimise that sort of thing.
Having Polish or Rus cavalry named "Druzhina" rather than just "Armoured Cavalry" makes the game more immersive.
And is the word spelled the same in Russian and Polish? (Since they share the unit).
Besides, three types of armour for knights in this time span sounds reasonable enough and the maps look great.
Well it is only two in the 1040-1319 period, and then there will be a third in the later period up to 1500.
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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by Paul59 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:16 pm

Veles wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:47 pm
Paul59 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:39 pm
The rectangular shield is used by protected and light Eastern European cavalrymen in the game.

To be fair, Heath depicts the rectangular shield frequently in Armies of The Middle Ages vol2 in the hands of Lithuanians, Germans, Hussites and Teutonic knights etc. I was not aware that he was not reliable regarding Eastern Europe, have you any evidence on that?
Well in his "Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300" in part devoted to Poland page 41 he makes mistakes already in the first sentence claiming that Bloeslav I was crowned in 1024 (he was crowned and established the Kingdom of Poland in 1025). And that just the beginning of the whole plethora of mistakes. He wrongly claims that druzhinas started as the king's personal retinue to later form a semi-professional army station around the country. Except in many ways, it was the other way around. He also claims that the Boleslav's druzhina was said to amount, 20 000 men, and I have no idea from where the hell he took that from since Gesta Principum Polonorum specify their number an approximately 5000-6000 thousand which is considered by scholars to be a credible number.

Then Heath claims that druzhina and leaves were organized in the decimal system. The problem is we don't have any sources that could confirm that. It is generally believed that druzhina was organized in triples, not tens.

Similar mistakes appear constantly in all parts devoted to Eastern European countries. On top of often mistranslations and typos. In the chapter about important battles of the period, he gives either very outdated or unfounded numbers for combatants (like in Battle of LegnicaLegnitz where he estimates Mongols army to be 100k strong which is absolute nonsense).
Thanks Veles,
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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by Athos1660 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:30 pm

Veles wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:53 pm
BTW, little suggestions if I may. I know that making separate models for every faction is out of the question but have you guys thought about at least giving them regional names when possible? Look at earlier Total War games where many identical units had different names which made it look like there is a greater variety of units than there really is.
Having Polish or Rus cavalry named "Druzhina" rather than just "Armoured Cavalry" makes the game more immersive. Not that it is a huge deal but I think it would be a welcome change. Different naming conventions present in FoG 2 made it more interesting in comparison with P&S for example. At least for me.
imho :
- In terms of immersion, historical names are really fun when you are a fan of History, don't really care about cloned units and want to learn the names of each units.
- In terms of playing the game, generic names and units are easier/faster to grasp (A light javelin horse is a light javelin horse with known attributes), especially when one likes quickly switching from one army to another.

btw Historical names are very easily moddable. It is just a matter of a little time and knowledge (or FoG tabletop books). It could be a community project.

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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by Veles » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:50 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:13 pm

We can look at a doing a bit more of that, but I do dislike having too many cloned units just so they can have a different names, so I try to minimise that sort of thing.
Having Polish or Rus cavalry named "Druzhina" rather than just "Armoured Cavalry" makes the game more immersive.
And is the word spelled the same in Russian and Polish? (Since they share the unit).
They are spelled differently, in Polish, it's "Drużyna" while in Russian "Druzhýna" but I don't think that matters. In most cases, an anglicized name should suffice. I don't think there is a need to use the original language well, unless there is no anglicized version.
Athos1660 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:30 pm

imho :
- In terms of immersion, historical names are really fun when you are a fan of History, don't really care about cloned units and want to learn the names of each units.
- In terms of playing the game, generic names and units are easier/faster to grasp (A light javelin horse is a light javelin horse with known attributes), especially when one likes quickly switching from one army to another.

btw Historical names are very easily moddable. It is just a matter of a little time and knowledge (or FoG tabletop books). It could be a community project.
I think it's possible to strike balance in regional naming. Logically it should only apply when a unit is typical only in a certain country or region or when a certain unit type is particularly famous in that part of the world. So mounted crossbowmen should always ber called mounted crossbowmen. Same for Knights, there is no reason to give them regional names like Ritter or Chevalier. But Iberian mounted Javlimen could be called Jinetes. Polish and Rus early medieval cavalry could be called Druzhina, Scandinavian warriors as Hirdmenn. In this kind of situations, it makes sense to give them such names.

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Re: Field of Glory II: Medieval is coming soon

Post by Athos1660 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:25 pm

Veles wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:50 pm
I think it's possible to strike balance in regional naming. Logically it should only apply when a unit is typical only in a certain country or region or when a certain unit type is particularly famous in that part of the world. So mounted crossbowmen should always ber called mounted crossbowmen. Same for Knights, there is no reason to give them regional names like Ritter or Chevalier. But Iberian mounted Javlimen could be called Jinetes. Polish and Rus early medieval cavalry could be called Druzhina, Scandinavian warriors as Hirdmenn. In this kind of situations, it makes sense to give them such names.
If I am not mistaken, Jinetes are in P&S and Hirdsmen in FoGII because they have a typical/particular set of traits in the game which has the advantage of being objective.

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