Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

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AlbertoC
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Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by AlbertoC » Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:27 pm

The Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship moves into the third round today and the battle for the top of the leader board remains mostly unchanged, with Kleko11 extending their lead.

Round 2 leader board:
1) kleko11 5930
2) bubu13 5716
3) FritzchenEK-I 5429
4) DarkBlueInk 5428
5) KhalilGibran 5347

The next battle takes us to Moscow in 1941. This will be a tough and protracted battle for the heart of a nation. Expect to score lots of points here...

Tournament Scoring Update

There have been two significant changes to how scoring works for this round, which you should be aware of:

1) In case of early victory the winner will get full points for all victory hexes for all remaining turns.
2) There are also separate points awarded for victory itself (500 points).

These changes have been introduced due to the feedback we received after the first two rounds.

We hope you'll like these changes to scoring. Please let us know if you have any questions.

SiberianStorm
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by SiberianStorm » Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:20 pm

:D
Thanks!
Good news indeed

songseeker
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by songseeker » Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:52 pm

While these changes are very welcome, they do not seem to address one of the major issues. I see no change to the problem where a losing player decides to play no longer. Several very decent solutions to this problem have been discussed on the forums, none of which would seem to be difficult to implement.

Panzerfater
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Panzerfater » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:25 am

From 13th place after 1 round, I dropped to 30+ in the second, where I lost one battle. And at 85! As a result of the third, where I lost both.
I suffered a crushing, devastating defeat like I have never experienced in turn-based strategies in my life since 1997. It's a shame for me.
It is important that my level of play was so low.
For me, there is no difference between 50m, 100m or 150th place.
I have only 2 questions:
1. Why can't you surrender in a separate battle? If on the third move I realized that I had formed the army incorrectly and victory was impossible, what is the point of playing further? I'm not a masochist.
2. Why it is impossible to leave the championship before its completion? If I realized that at least I will not get into the top ten after the first three rounds, what is the point for me to play until the 12th?

Lifever
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Lifever » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:59 am

Panzerfater wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:25 am
I suffered a crushing, devastating defeat like I have never experienced in turn-based strategies in my life since 1997. It's a shame for me.
On the hexfield good men take their failures personal
Rise again
We prob got into service the same year - 97/98
Panzerfater wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:25 am
I have only 2 questions:
1. Why can't you surrender in a separate battle? If on the third move I realized that I had formed the army incorrectly and victory was impossible, what is the point of playing further? I'm not a masochist.
2. Why it is impossible to leave the championship before its completion? If I realized that at least I will not get into the top ten after the first three rounds, what is the point for me to play until the 12th?

Your questions are the ones that puzzled a lot of ppl right from the beginning
A lot of players got paired with no-shows. But those no-shows could not drop out prior
Same in the game - a lot of players simply don't want to load a game and turns to relive the misery

There is 0 competitive element and nothing is learned out of that. A messed up gameplan doesn't come back

Thinking this to the end:
If surrender in game is possible, the scoring becomes even more dreadful
It will then depend on the WILL OF THE LOSER how many points the winner gets

If you decide T3 "Ok, messed that up - drop out", the winner gets more points than somebody whose opponent wants to "fight to the last hex in a lost cause"

Surrender should be possible
Dropping out of tourney must be possible
Further massive changes to scoring are inevitable if it is supposed to be taken serious

Panzerfater
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Panzerfater » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:47 am

Lifever wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:59 am
If you decide T3 "Ok, messed that up - drop out", the winner gets more points than somebody whose opponent wants to "fight to the last hex in a lost cause"
Why reinvent the wheel? Let the computer finish the game for the surrendered player. In this case, the winner will receive his points, both for the killed and for the captures. And the player who surrendered will receive only for the damage that he managed to inflict.

JP1967
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by JP1967 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:14 pm

Dear opponent,
Where are you ? Since, after my last turn, I've got the opportunity to win two of my objectiv hexes in Moscow, you have disappeared.

Lifever
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Lifever » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:34 pm

Panzerfater wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:47 am
Why reinvent the wheel? Let the computer finish the game for the surrendered player. In this case, the winner will receive his points, both for the killed and for the captures. And the player who surrendered will receive only for the damage that he managed to inflict.
The scoring as of now is the reinvented wheel. Yet wheel is a stretch for a square rock

Let the AI finish a game for scoring purposes in a MP tournament?
Then the player who is profound at milking the AI wins the most on the scoreboard

Why should a AAA or S-rank MP contender be bothered with milking the most useless AI in a MP tournament?
This is for the campaign "pros" - in MP we are generous to dub them B+

Ah, now I get it Panzervater - good joke
You really got me with that one..

Panzerfater
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Panzerfater » Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:47 pm

Offer:
By pressing the "Surrender" button, the player leaves the tournament. Surrender often won't work. The winner receives 75% of the maximum possible number of points for winning this scenario.
Last edited by Panzerfater on Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bagatrix1805
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Bagatrix1805 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:42 pm

This is probably the worst tournament I have ever played in. I am once again plagued by an opponent that does not play. I am winning in both games, have captured 2 objectives with lots of turns to go , but no opponent. I have won all my games but poor points total as I did not realize you have to avoid wining quick in the previous rounds , and now it don't matter as am so far behind , and no chance in catching up, especially when the opponent is a no show.
Also what is the point of the long delays between rounds. With Christmas coming up and i am travelling why even bother Unless Slitherine fixes this issue for the next tournament, I wont bother. I just want to play against other people, its fun and as there are not many multiplayer games/scenarios (unlike Panzer corp original) the tournaments were the avenue to play. it is a shame so many people are not playing or drop out. I am sure some have real reasons, especially during Covid but surely not all are on holiday or sick etc.
I suggest blow it all up and start over but charge people an entry fee, also if you play slow or stop playing your opponent scores the same as the top player for the round in points that way once you get to the later rounds all the top players are probably still playing.

Finally whoever is my next opponent, I am sad to say that I will only be able to play up to Dec 13 and then nothing till Jan 4 as I am away visiting family.

Trepko
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Trepko » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:48 pm

Panzerfater wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:25 am
From 13th place after 1 round, I dropped to 30+ in the second, where I lost one battle. And at 85! As a result of the third, where I lost both.
I suffered a crushing, devastating defeat like I have never experienced in turn-based strategies in my life since 1997. It's a shame for me.
It is important that my level of play was so low.
For me, there is no difference between 50m, 100m or 150th place.
I have only 2 questions:
1. Why can't you surrender in a separate battle? If on the third move I realized that I had formed the army incorrectly and victory was impossible, what is the point of playing further? I'm not a masochist.
2. Why it is impossible to leave the championship before its completion? If I realized that at least I will not get into the top ten after the first three rounds, what is the point for me to play until the 12th?
Really, I don't understand your point of view. Do you only play a game if you're 100% sure to win ? Play against computer in easiest difficulty then. The whole point about MP games is that there are 50% people who win and 50% people who lose. The whole point of a tournament is that there is only ONE winner and 99% losers. Accept it or don't play. Should MP and tournaments be forbidden for that ? It only depends on what you're expecting when you're playing. Don't play MP/tournaments if you only seek victory. Play MP/tournaments if you seek challenge, if you want to improve you skills, if you want adrenaline.

About your questions:
1 - you didn't understand the scoring system of the tournament. The choice of the devs is to choose real historical battles of WWII, and not 100% symetrical battles. So, the scenarii are unbalanced (and it's why you play both sides), and so the idea of "winning" is irrelevant. The goal is to perform "the best you can" with the army you're given. This is the reason of the "points system", and this is why you have to play until the last round, even if you know you will lose the side. So yes, you have to be a masochist, and fight teeth and nails until the last turn to try to delay the best your opponent. It's exactly the same as "Bridge" tournaments (the card game), where everyone successively plays with the same given cards, and where the winner is the one who performed the best with theses cards.

2 - Again, the question should be: why did you subscribed to the tournament ? Only to be n°1 ? When you subscribed, were you really thinking you were PzC2 n°1 player in the world ? When you play a tournament, it's to compare your skills with other people. The huge good thing about this tournament is that after round 4 or 5, everyone will approximatively be ranked according to his real level, and all the remaining games will be played against people of equal skill (and I totally agree that theses are the most pleasant games to play).

One last thing: it's precisely your attitude that is killing MP and this tournament: quitting a game after a few turns because things didn't go exactly as expected, quitting a tournament because you suddenly realized there are (a lot of) people who are better than you.

Adel77
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Adel77 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:42 am

Panzerfater wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:47 pm
Offer:
By pressing the "Surrender" button, the player leaves the tournament. Surrender often won't work. The winner receives 75% of the maximum possible number of points for winning this scenario.
only 100% and not one point less
What is this!???

Reading through this forum makes me give up on this community and game

This entire scoring sucks - anybody with 2 brain cells can see this
No show and scoring is out the window!
Enemy does noot finish like he should - scoring out the fucking window!

it is mind boggling how many people try to think how this can be solved
Guess what - it can not - not with thos numeric values

You will never find a numeric value that accounts for a game played to the end

Think of olympic or sports contests. Enemy does not show up - do judges decide about an athletes score? Do they reward him 2000pts - 15th place - there you go sucker!
WTF? This is why tournaments have either sudden death or win / loss
But those tournaments are stupid - this here is done perfect. Punish strong players, reward a few lucky ones who got the right opponent
This is panzer corps - a strategy game where stupid luck wins over a well thought out setup and hard earned skill

urbanov4
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by urbanov4 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:41 pm

I wrote it a hundred times durind the 3 round of this tournament, and during the also badly organized tournament before-but if felt on deaf ears.



[quote=


Reading through this forum makes me give up on this community and game

This entire scoring sucks - anybody with 2 brain cells can see this
No show and scoring is out the window!
Enemy does noot finish like he should - scoring out the fucking window!

it is mind boggling how many people try to think how this can be solved
Guess what - it can not - not with thos numeric values

You will never find a numeric value that accounts for a game played to the end

Think of olympic or sports contests. Enemy does not show up - do judges decide about an athletes score? Do they reward him 2000pts - 15th place - there you go sucker!
WTF? This is why tournaments have either sudden death or win / loss
But those tournaments are stupid - this here is done perfect. Punish strong players, reward a few lucky ones who got the right opponent
This is panzer corps - a strategy game where stupid luck wins over a well thought out setup and hard earned skill
[/quote]

tagedieb34
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by tagedieb34 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:50 pm

One silly question: When (how) will game no. 2 (moscow scenario-russia side) end? I think I killed the last german troops of my opponent yesterday and secured all cities, airfields etc (turn is no. 8 or so), but the game is still active. Does my opponent have to surrender manually and how can he do that? Or do we have to click turns until time is up...? :(

Game 1 (german side) on the other hand finished automatically by early victory...

Dzidek
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Dzidek » Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:18 pm

tagedieb34 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:50 pm
One silly question: When (how) will game no. 2 (moscow scenario-russia side) end? I think I killed the last german troops of my opponent yesterday and secured all cities, airfields etc (turn is no. 8 or so), but the game is still active. Does my opponent have to surrender manually and how can he do that? Or do we have to click turns until time is up...? :(

Game 1 (german side) on the other hand finished automatically by early victory...
Guess:)
I had the same thing in the first round. My opponent survived in the senseless clicking in end turn until the 13th turn. I already wrote about this issue on the forum, but there was no reaction.

Panzerfater
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Panzerfater » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:18 pm

Trepko wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:48 pm
Really, I don't understand your point of view. Do you only play a game if you're 100% sure to win ? Play against computer in easiest difficulty then. The whole point about MP games is that there are 50% people who win and 50% people who lose. The whole point of a tournament is that there is only ONE winner and 99% losers. Accept it or don't play. Should MP and tournaments be forbidden for that ? It only depends on what you're expecting when you're playing. Don't play MP/tournaments if you only seek victory. Play MP/tournaments if you seek challenge, if you want to improve you skills, if you want adrenaline.
You did not understand. I play when it is INTERESTING to play. If I lose a mission objective on turn 12 out of 15, that's interesting. If you are 3 out of 15 without a chance to change anything, it breaks the spirit. And if I realized that I am not pulling this tournament, so, continue to wag my nerves? It is wiser to leave. What choice do I have? Don't make any moves at all. For someone to fly out because of me.

Trepko
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Trepko » Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:14 am

Panzerfater wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:18 pm
Trepko wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:48 pm
Really, I don't understand your point of view. Do you only play a game if you're 100% sure to win ? Play against computer in easiest difficulty then. The whole point about MP games is that there are 50% people who win and 50% people who lose. The whole point of a tournament is that there is only ONE winner and 99% losers. Accept it or don't play. Should MP and tournaments be forbidden for that ? It only depends on what you're expecting when you're playing. Don't play MP/tournaments if you only seek victory. Play MP/tournaments if you seek challenge, if you want to improve you skills, if you want adrenaline.
You did not understand. I play when it is INTERESTING to play. If I lose a mission objective on turn 12 out of 15, that's interesting. If you are 3 out of 15 without a chance to change anything, it breaks the spirit. And if I realized that I am not pulling this tournament, so, continue to wag my nerves? It is wiser to leave. What choice do I have? Don't make any moves at all. For someone to fly out because of me.
Of course, as everyone, you prefer to play when it's interesting, which is when you play an opponent of equal skill.
And that's why this scoring system is relatively good for this (although it also has obvious flaws as everyone mentioned in this forum).
I mean: in a small tournament where everyone has equal skills (like, let's say, a pro sport tournament), a simple win/loss is sufficent to properly rank people. Make everyone plays agains everyone (championship formula), and count the wins in the end. Or make winners play against each other (cup or swiss formula), and see who is undefeated in the end.
On the contrary, in a very large tournament where people have very different skill (like this one), a simple win/loss will take you nowhere. It would take ages to clearly rank people. Whereas a point system allows to rank games between them: a clear win will grant you more points than a tight win. Combined to the matchmaking system (you always play against the opponent ranked next to you), it allows, in a few games (I would say 3 or 4) to properly rank 90% people. We only played 3 games, and I'm quite confident that kleko11 will be our champion at the end of the tournament, or at least he'll be in top3. See ? in 3 games the system achevied to find who is the best among 250 people.
The other advantage is that after theses 3-4 games, the ranking will be relatively stable, which means you will play all your remaining games against people of your skill (which, as casual players, is what we all want).

However, I can only agree that no-showers or mid-game leavers are severly dommaging the system (slowing the progression of strong people, and boosting weak ones), and I beg the devs to find a better solution.

As you can see, this system needs a few games to properly works, which means that these 3-4 first games can be quite chaotic (playing against a much better or much lower player)
=> I think the devs should have more communicated about that: so the tournament can work, people should be prepared (and accept) to go through theses random first games.

Dzidek
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Dzidek » Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:50 am

Trepko wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:14 am
On the contrary, in a very large tournament where people have very different skill (like this one), a simple win/loss will take you nowhere. It would take ages to clearly rank people. Whereas a point system allows to rank games between them: a clear win will grant you more points than a tight win. Combined to the matchmaking system (you always play against the opponent ranked next to you), it allows, in a few games (I would say 3 or 4) to properly rank 90% people. We only played 3 games, and I'm quite confident that kleko11 will be our champion at the end of the tournament, or at least he'll be in top3. See ? in 3 games the system achevied to find who is the best among 250 people.
The other advantage is that after theses 3-4 games, the ranking will be relatively stable, which means you will play all your remaining games against people of your skill (which, as casual players, is what we all want).

However, I can only agree that no-showers or mid-game leavers are severly dommaging the system (slowing the progression of strong people, and boosting weak ones), and I beg the devs to find a better solution.

As you can see, this system needs a few games to properly works, which means that these 3-4 first games can be quite chaotic (playing against a much better or much lower player)
=> I think the devs should have more communicated about that: so the tournament can work, people should be prepared (and accept) to go through theses random first games.
In such a situation, eliminations had to be carried out.
It will solve most problems.

Allowing continue people who stop making a move on the verge of losing a game will never lead to a correct ranking. The low compensation that is obtained in such a case does not even come close to the loss suffered.

FritzchenEK-I
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by FritzchenEK-I » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:15 pm

Trepko wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:48 pm
We only played 3 games, and I'm quite confident that kleko11 will be our champion at the end of the tournament, or at least he'll be in top3. See ? in 3 games the system achevied to find who is the best among 250 people.
Yes - kleko will win. It is impossible to beat him because it is impossible to play against him.
He was lucky to get paired with guys who play and grant him his points. You can only be as good as your opponent lets you.

I made #3 after last round on the scoreboard.
Both matches everything went spot on.

Round 1 I was so incapable that I took victory hexes, so I got the same points as no-shows.

Round 2 I had to beg my opponent on my knees to grant me the victory points and play on. He was so kind !

Round 3 I was confident that everything could go smooth and I will face a worthy opponent in DarkBlueInk. #3 vs #4 with 1 point difference.
Awesome!
Granted - we started late, but had 15 days to finish when we started. I answered every turn within 12 hours at the latest!
After he realized that he will lose bad, he stopped playing.

I stand on the scoreboard with ~200 pts - pants down and very disappointed in all of this ordeal and also in my opponent.
Didn't DarkBlueInk argue for more fun and pulling though?

You are the same. You don't even realize you contradict yourself.
You argue against W/L on the basis that it will take several rounds to pair players of equal strength.
Then you say - that after 3-4 turns this system will filter the no-showers out and will get better.
Guess what - every system needs time to work pair opponents of equal strength.
But no system takes so long to achieve such an unfair and frustrating result as this here.

Trepko
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Trepko » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:14 pm

The real problem here is that as every system in life, it can properly works only if people who are in it correctly run it. Even if devs design the perfect tournament, it will only be another big fail if players in the tournament behave as irresponsible whining raging children. Unfortunately, PzC2 community seems to have a quite large number of this kind of people, at least enough to ruin every attempt of having some fun.
The problem of this tournament is not the rules. The problem is the players themselves.

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