Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

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Lifever
Panzer Corps World Champion
Panzer Corps World Champion
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:35 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Lifever »

PaganCyC wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:19 pm
StuG_Tutor wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:05 am ...
It's not like I actually got to play this scenario :)
Here you go:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/10-t-AD ... sp=sharing

It is as close to the Round 3 map/setup as I could get from my notes. I had a few questions I posted here and got no response to:
viewtopic.php?f=597&t=107683

If I get useful feedback I will update it and re-release without the silly name.
Not too happy about the map rebuilds. At least not before the round is finished.
Very happy if SLITHERINE would release the maps bit by bit
AFTER important adjustments, bc as of now they have serious gameplay flaws (no details here)
AFTER the round is played

Why not happy about rebuilds?
Sooner or later competitive players will feel the need to see the map and especially both sides before they make their choice of troops.
This will result in games starting slower and the flow of games diminished further.

The gap between competitive and fun players becomes wider.
The information playing field should be as even as possible.

It is great that map reading ability is tested in the individual as he sees map and task for the first time when the round starts.
Same as anybody else.
Don't ruin that element.
StuG_Tutor
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:12 am

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by StuG_Tutor »

rth wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:47 am Ich finde die Beiträge von Trepko sehr gut, er hat meiner Meinung nach genau den Kern der Sache getroffen. Natürlich macht es mehr Spaß zu gewinnen, aber auch bei einer sich abzeichnenden Niederlage ist es eine Frage der persönlichen Integrität und Fairness dem Gewinner nichts zu schenken.
Ich könnte auch jammern über meine Dummheit, oder das ich kein Glück hatte bei der Auslosung (1. Spiel kein Gegner, 2. Spiel klar gewonnen aber zu schnell alles erobert, 3. Spiel keine Chance gegen einen sehr guten Spieler, der das Spiel und seine Geheimnisse viel viel besser kannte als ich selbst) und ja es kostet Überwindung bei Misserfolgen immer weiter zu machen und seinem Gegner den Erfolg zu gönnen, ich bin mir sicher das es meinem 3. Gegner Spaß gemacht hat gegen mich zu spielen und zu gewinnen, warum sollte das Erfolgserlebnis jemanden gestohlen werden ...... durch frühzeitigen Abbruch !!!
***rough translation.
I think Trepko's contributions are very good, I think he got to the heart of the matter. Of course, it's more fun to win, but even with a looming defeat, it's a matter of personal integrity and fairness not to give anything to the winner.
I could also complain about my stupidity, or that I had no luck in the draw (1st game no opponent, 2nd game clearly won but conquered everything too quickly, 3rd game no chance against a very good player who knew the game and its secrets much better than myself) and yes it costs overcoming failures to keep going and to give his opponent the success, I am sure that my 3rd opponent enjoyed playing against me and winning, why should the sense of achievement be stolen from someone ...... !!! by early termination
*** End Translation


In most sports competitions there are standards and expectations which competitors must comply with to have the privilege to compete. An absolute minimum standard for a Panzer Corps 2 tournament is that players finish their matches. If they don't, they should be sent an e-mail that they have failed to meet the minimum standard of the competition and will not be included in future rounds. The player could appeal the decision for one reason: they were not allowed adequate time to complete their turns due to the stalling tactics of their opponent. To win the appeal, the game file must show that at no point did they take longer than 36 hours to complete a turn and their average time between being notified of their turn and ending their turn times the maximum number of turns the game could have gone was less than 10.5 days. Unless such a minimum standard is enforced this is not a Championship Competition, it is a marketing event. It could be both, but only if it enforced minimum sportsmanship standards with disqualification.

I too fight to the bitter end when losing as a matter of principle. A scoring system which factors in the prestige or army value of the winner at the end of the game or has a high multiplier for slots killed rewards the stubbornness of those like us.

***(hopefully good) translation:
In den meisten Sportwettbewerben gibt es Standards und Erwartungen, die die Teilnehmer erfüllen müssen, um das Privileg zu haben, an Wettkämpfen teilzunehmen. Ein absoluter Mindeststandard für ein Panzer Corps 2-Turnier ist, dass die Spieler ihre Matches beenden. Wenn dies nicht der Fall ist, sollten sie eine E-Mail erhalten, dass sie den Mindeststandard des Wettbewerbs nicht erfüllt haben und nicht in zukünftige Runden aufgenommen werden. Der Spieler konnte die Entscheidung aus einem Grund anfechten: Ihm wurde aufgrund der Hinhaltetaktik seines Gegners nicht genügend Zeit gelassen, um seine Züge abzuschließen. Um den Einspruch zu gewinnen, muss die Spielakte zeigen, dass sie zu keinem Zeitpunkt länger als 36 Stunden gebraucht haben, um einen Zug abzuschließen, und ihre durchschnittliche Zeit zwischen der Benachrichtigung über ihren Zug und dem Ende ihrer Zugzeiten betrug die maximale Anzahl von Runden, die das Spiel hätte durchlaufen können, weniger als 10,5 Tage. Wenn ein solcher Mindeststandard nicht durchgesetzt wird, handelt es sich nicht um einen Meisterschaftswettbewerb, sondern um eine Marketingveranstaltung. Es könnte beides sein, aber nur, wenn es minimale Sportsgeiststandards mit Disqualifikation durchsetzt.

Auch ich kämpfe bis zum bitteren Ende, wenn ich prinzipiell verliere. Ein Punktesystem, das das Prestige oder den Armeewert des Gewinners am Ende des Spiels berücksichtigt oder einen hohen Multiplikator für getötete Slots hat, belohnt die Sturheit von Menschen wie uns.
***
"All models are wrong, but some are useful" --George E.P. Box
rth
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:20 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by rth »

mir hat die 3.WM Runden - Karte nicht gefallen, dass hat weniger damit zu tun das ich verloren habe ... na ja ein bisschen schon
aber auf dieser Karte ist man extrem im Vorteil, wenn man so viel wie möglich erfahrene Einheiten mit extremen Überstärken ausrüstet und die andere Hälfte der Einheiten am Anfang verkauft
ich bin kein Freund von Überstärken, ist meiner Meinung nach nicht realistisch
ein paar wenige sollte erlaubt sein, aber wirklich nur ganz ganz wenige
StuG_Tutor
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:12 am

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by StuG_Tutor »

Lifever wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:28 pm Not too happy about the map rebuilds. At least not before the round is finished.
Very happy if SLITHERINE would release the maps bit by bit
AFTER important adjustments, bc as of now they have serious gameplay flaws (no details here)
AFTER the round is played

Why not happy about rebuilds?
Sooner or later competitive players will feel the need to see the map and especially both sides before they make their choice of troops.
This will result in games starting slower and the flow of games diminished further.

The gap between competitive and fun players becomes wider.
The information playing field should be as even as possible.

It is great that map reading ability is tested in the individual as he sees map and task for the first time when the round starts.
Same as anybody else.
Don't ruin that element.
I strongly agree. I also think competition maps should be completely new rather than based on existing scenarios. Because both players play each side in a round, rigorous playtesting of a new map isn't as vital as in solo play scenario design and virtually no sophisticated scripting is required because there is no AI. Making a completely new decent multi-player map can be a very quick project. New maps put everyone on equal footing.

Related to this, I think a set of tournament rules should include the requirement to take your turn in both games. Playing ahead in one game shouldn't be allowed.
"All models are wrong, but some are useful" --George E.P. Box
StuG_Tutor
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:12 am

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by StuG_Tutor »

rth wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:44 pm
ich bin kein Freund von Überstärken, ist meiner Meinung nach nicht realistisch
ein paar wenige sollte erlaubt sein, aber wirklich nur ganz ganz wenige
Dem kann ich nur zustimmen. Es ist einer meiner drei am wenigsten bevorzugten Aspekte von Multiplayer-PzC2-Spielen - aber ich begann die dritte Runde mit vielen überbesetzten Artillerie-, 8.8cm- und Lufteinheiten. Vor allem, weil mein Gegner, wenn ich es nicht tat, sicher war und meine historisch realistische STR = 10 Einheiten dezimierte. Die anderen beiden Aspekte von Multiplayer, auf die ich verzichten könnte, sind die Fähigkeit, eine Brückeneinheit auf einer Landebahn in der Nähe eines Bodentruppen-Versorgungshexes weit hinter den feindlichen Linien zu landen und sofort eine Division zu spawnen. Ich würde es auch vorziehen, dass die Streitkräfte des Spiels vernünftig proportioniert werden, so dass Sie nicht zwei Runden bekommen und herausfinden, dass Ihr Gegner 5-mal so viele Kämpfer hat, als jemals verfügbar gewesen wären.
"All models are wrong, but some are useful" --George E.P. Box
Lifever
Panzer Corps World Champion
Panzer Corps World Champion
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:35 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Lifever »

OS is not overpowered

Multiple guys played my setup for round 3.
It had very scarce use of OS and a healthy mix of all - it was a style list, not a beard or cheese list - and could have been roughly how an army would have looked that tackles Moscow at the time.
Strategic bombers, 4 sorts of arty - Basically it contained most Axis units of the time

It showed in several matchups that OS is indeed stronger if both players play it brute force

The smart strategy with superior adaptation and logistic on the field beats 15 OS ***

My bet: A well rounded list with a well rounded commander beats OS brute force "every single time" - taken with a grain of salt depending on scenario
PaganCyC
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:30 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by PaganCyC »

Lifever wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:28 pm
Not too happy about the map rebuilds. At least not before the round is finished.
Not sure what you are bothered by since the round was over before I shared the map.
Lifever
Panzer Corps World Champion
Panzer Corps World Champion
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:35 pm

Re: Panzer Corps 2 - World Championship Round 3 Update

Post by Lifever »

PaganCyC wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:41 pm
Not sure what you are bothered by since the round was over before I shared the map.
If you don't fit the criteria, there's no need to feel scolded in the first place

Not happy was adressed to the maps not being released orderly

The rest was based on the future and others who will follow suit and probably won't do it your way.
It's not like we see this now for the first time happening
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