Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by IainMcNeil » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:05 pm

You can split in the field. See an opportunity to split your tanks and envelop the enemy - then you can do it. But you need to be able to survive the attempted break out.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Patrick Ward » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:21 pm

13obo wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:26 pm
Woah, so the developer finally succumbed to the relentless demand for updates from the existing fanbase. Good, looking forward to future ones!
lol Not quite. There's been a marketting plan for some time but the materials weren't ready and the initial announcement was, with hindsight, made too early. Our mistake.

The last year or so hasn't gone quite to plan with a number of us needing to split our time between multiple projects ( the reality of developing niche games ) and a couple of essential system changes that required a reset. There's really been nothing we could of talked about or shown that would of been of any interest to anyone. Thats just the way it goes sometimes. So the forum has not been upmost on our minds. Definitely our bad and we hope to do better over the coming months.

All in all ..
No, we've never stopped development and finishing the game has never been in question.
Yes, we have collated many of the comments and suggestions. I'd say 'all of them' but some of them are utter pants. You need to do better! :D
No, there is no guarantee your game design Eureka moment will ever make it into the game so don't take it personally. Send us better ones instead. (that's a general/plural 'your' .. I'm not pointing fingers)
Yes, it's made with 3D. You'll just have to get over that as its not going to change. :D (again thats a general, global 'you' )
Yes, our communication could be described as pants too, but we will improve eventually. I'll install a tea cosey on my swinging brick (you need to of read a previous post)
Yes, we appreciate gifts of cakes.

And please see.
viewtopic.php?f=464&t=86888

And thank you Alberto and zakblood.
Last edited by Patrick Ward on Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Intenso82 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:00 pm

Hi, Patrick!
I think a good game is a game mechanics + visual design. Not one thing. Two together.
It is worth to evaluate two things together.
Although I'm more interested in game mechanics :)

If there is a map converter, will there be a full scenario converter?
If so, will all existing PZC1 content(DLC, GC) be transferred into a new game engine?

I would also like to know more about the campaign. Will these be completely new scenarios?
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Patrick Ward » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:53 pm

All in good time matey. More dev diaries have been and are being written and I don't want to jump the gun on anything.

Just to squash one rumour before it spreads ... to the best of my knowledge there will not be a conversion tool and the PzC1 maps will not come pre-converted. I might be wrong but for now, assume that there isn't and they won't.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Rudankort » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:04 am

Hello All!

Thanks for all the feedback so far. Rest assured that we are listening very carefully, and no comment will go unnoticed.
Retributarr wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:13 pm
From the Map-Depiction, my first impression is that the Units in it with the depicted BackGround just might blend together a little too much, making it difficult to see where your Units' are verses the Campaign/Scenario-Map!. Would it be possible to have a built-In-adjustment tab or what-ever, so that one could adjust the intensity of the Darkness/Brightness of the Units and or also the BackGround-Scenery?...to make it easier for the Player to see what is going on and to easily see who is where and in what terrain situation!.
The units always stood out from the map in this game series, and this is one of our priorities in the new game. The screenshot may not be fully representative here, because in trying to show more of the map at once, I've got view angle close to top-down, which makes it harder to read the units. To make matters worse, this screenshot was downscaled from full HD (BTW, here is the image in original size). In any event, if our current implementation is not good enough, we will improve it. Of course, we can make an option to control intensity of units/terrain, but first, we will try to make it work for everybody and without the need to adjust anything. ;)
goose_2 wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:06 pm
This is very interesting new concepts that I would like to playtest before they are fully implemented as some areas I see possibly breaking the current game, but want to play test first before I make a judgment...
But even before you can test them, feel free to post any concerns here! :)
Kerensky wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:13 pm
For example, splitting sounds interesting, but it pretty much goes against all the rules of good combat. You should always consolidate strength, not spread it, especially in long PVE campaign environments where snowball effects make winner win more and losers lose more. Is it actually going to be effective general tactic, or a gimmick that requires specific scenario design to enable functionality of? I mean, if splitting a unit takes extra core slots, why not just have full normal core slots of cheaper units and have them all proper 10 strength instead of expensive 5 strength units. It's generally always better to have weaker 10 strengths than stronger 5 strengths. This is why all those custom maps with 1 and 2 strength Tiger tanks units were interesting in concept, but invariably failed in practice.
What you say does make perfect sense, I just wanted to point out that:
- A unit may take up several slots, so splitting may be cheaper than buying a second full-blown unit.
- There are also over-strength units, so even in halves they can be quite powerful (e. g. 15 -> 8+7).
- You can split/merge on one side of the map when you need an additional unit there, then do it on the other side of the map next turn. It just makes your force more flexible, at a cost of leaving some slots unused.

As for tactical uses for splitting, here are some possible ideas:
- Complete encirclement
- Recon
- Deplete enemy unit's ammo
- Cut off enemy unit's path to retreat
- Split crippled unit and run in opposite directions to maximize its chances of survival
- Provide at least some cover for more that 1 bomber at once
- Spread out suppression from artillery across two enemy units
etc.
gerbercage wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:58 am
Do this game/game engine make use of many core/thread CPU or still only using one like most of the game?
Panzer Corps 2 is a turn based game, so it does not need to multi-thread as aggressively as real time games. However, the AI has been designed and implemented so that it can use as many threads as we throw at it, so it should be able to utilize all available cores.
mcc6256 wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:15 am
They need to resize the units.They're out of proportion to each other.
In the end, relative size of units will be handled the same way it was handled in Panzer Corps. I don't remember any complaints about unit relative scaling in that game, but if you think it is not good enough, let us know!
Sourdust wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:09 am
The graphics do nothing at all for me, they're bland exhibit "early 21st century 3D render style", which is to say no style at all. I can't see that these graphics justify the shift to 3D. Unity of Command 2 team is doing a far better job producing a coherent and interesting visual style for their new game (even in 3D). I hate zooming and rotating around a map with a camera, it feels like camera is used as a crutch for bad graphic design. I'd rather have things presented well in max 2 scales, or better yet 1 scale with a mini-map.
I agree that Unity of Command 2 looks quite nice, but I don't agree that Panzer Corps 2 has no style. I think, "Panzer" games in 2D had very distinctive visual style, and the new game very clearly follows the same style in 3D. You may not like it, but it does not mean it is not there. As for camera controls, they will not be more complicated than in Panzer Corps. At the same time, personally I think that smooth zoom is always an advantage. In this game every battle has many different levels, starting from global strategy to strategy of each separate battle group to low-level tactics. You need different scale when planning ground war, air war and naval war. In each case you will use zoom to see everything you need big and clear.
Sourdust wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:09 am
I don't like the captured units mechanic at all. I know people liked using Char B1s etc. in PC, but the truth is that too much captured equipment makes the armies feel less unique, breaks immersion and encourages lazy play. I'd like to see less captured equipment, not more.
The point of captured unit mechanic is to have LESS captured units, not more. The way it worked before, when you got your Char B1s, you could use it indefinitely, until a more powerful upgrade became available. In Panzer Corps 2 you spend points from captured pool to raise such units, and also to replace them. As soon as you run out of points, no further replacements are possible. You can either try to capture more points form the enemy, or upgrade this unit to your native equipment, to get unlimited replacement points.
Sourdust wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:09 am
I'm keen to see what devs make of the whole prestige system / power curve / campaign progression. This to my mind is where the game will be made or broken, and I do hope there is some serious innovation in the works.
I did not write about it in the first diary, because it is more of a low-level aspect, related to how rules and formulas work under the hood. All I can say is that we are of course aware of the problem and giving it a lot of attention. It could be a good subject for one of the future dev diaries.
Sourdust wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:09 am
It looks like devs are being cautious or conservative in what they're doing with the game (eg no changes to unit classes or stats). I'd rather something that takes a few more design risks...
I think, even from the first dev diary it is obvious that we are doing some pretty serious changes, which some Panzer Corps fans may not like. In fact, with an established game like Panzer Corps, ANY change is risky. :) As for classes and stats - well, we don't change them simply because it is better to add more functionality via unit's unique traits and abilities than to introduce more stats which most units may not even need. At the same time, it is good to give our players some familiar ground and not force them to learn the whole game from scratch. This is what sequels are about. :P
bebro wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:34 pm
Air model with planes auto-returning reminds me a bit on SSI's in People's General...
In that game air units were not proper core units though, but "air missions". We thought it was important to keep air units in the core, so you could nurture them, replace/elite-replace/upgrade/over-strength them, use prototypes or captured equipment for them, gain experience, awards and heroes on them, and even... give them unique names. :) In other words, do everything you are used to do with your beloved core units.
Intenso82 wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:00 pm
If there is a map converter, will there be a full scenario converter?
If so, will all existing PZC1 content(DLC, GC) be transferred into a new game engine?
We don't plan to provide any official conversions of PzC content. PzC2 is a new, separate game. If there is demand, it is technically possible to provide conversion option as part of the new Editor. However, note that Panzer Corps 2 uses a different hex orientation, so any maps from Panzer Corps will be converted rotated. And of course, the balance of such converted scenarios will be completely off, because of different game rules, different unit balance, different AI and many other aspects.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Mojko » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:12 am

I read the PC2 diary and I must say I'm not impressed. Btw I completely ignored how the game looks as that is labeled as alpha and it's not fair to judge a game by its looks in alpha. I did go through the list of features and here is what I think:

Overrun - Bad

hated this feature in Panzer General 2 because it makes squishy units much less viable. The thing I like about OOB is that there are viable strategies which use weak units like engineers.

Encirclements - Good

this is basically imported from OOB. Works well in OOB so I think I will like it in PC2 as well

Splitting units - Bad

This provides unnecessary complexity and potential to be exploited. It also makes balancing scenarios more difficult. Doesn't work well will above mentioned Overrun mechanic.

Captured units - Bad

While I like using captured units in the campaign, these are carefully balanced. Having this as a core mechanic can be a nightmare from scenario designer point of view.

Unique hero abilities - Bad

Hated this in Panzer General 3. Once again this makes the balancing of the campaign a nightmare because if these abilities are actually good you may end up with overpowered units. I thought that they would learn their lesson from overpowered leaders in PC 1 that had to be banned in a patch.

Air and Naval Warfare - Good

The description of the feature is quite vague to comment on but overall PC 2 really needs more focus on Air and Naval warfare. I always thought that Air and Naval Warfare in PC 1 was just an afterthought.

Overall, I'm not impressed, but there is still plenty of information that we don't know about the game so I will keep an eye out for new features :wink:.

I'm still waiting for two most crucial pieces of game information:

- will the dreaded overstrength mechanic be present?
- will the command slots be kept without any wights? (I mean in PC each unit takes up one slot, in OOB infantry takes 3, heavy infantry 4, light tank 5, medium tank 6, heavy tank 7 which makes more srtategies viable).
Author and maintainer of Unit Navigator Tool for Order Of Battle (http://mfendek.byethost16.com/)

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by jshaun29 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:37 am

Will it be available for MAC users as well? Or just PC

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by ptje63 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:49 am

Im not into splitting units, butif it is considered than I do hope that strengthening units in between turns will also be changed from forced back to full strength to 1-by-1.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by cicciopastic » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:20 pm

BiteNibbleChomp wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:49 pm
They speak! :D

- BNC
LOOOOOL +1!!!!!

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by jshaun29 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:02 pm

New gameplay adaptations sound good! However, the Alpha version graphics look much less to be desired!!

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Kerensky » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:19 pm

Rudankort wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:04 am
Hello All!

Thanks for all the feedback so far. Rest assured that we are listening very carefully, and no comment will go unnoticed...
All sound very intriguing on paper, we'll see though!

There was a good point brought up about overrun interaction with intentionally split and therefore under strength units... Sounds like there could, and should, be an interesting and dynamic relationship to those mechanics. Splitting should always be a good and powerful tool to employ, for the variety of reasons you've laid out, and it should not be just a scenario design gimmick. But overrun is what keeps an otherwise OP ability in check. Easy to overrun a scattering of formations, and protecting yourself from overrun requires concentration of force and not splitting.

Also, can we get some kind of forum icon for Ward? lol

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Jelinobas » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:18 pm

Don't like the greenish look, hope you add more colors to the game.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by DandyDust » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:58 am

Thanks for developing PC2! - I saw the diary - announcement but I do wonder if terrain will play a bigger part in the outcome of battles. In Panzer Corps I. terrain types dont play a roll (besides rivers, bridges and wheater as such), but terraine influence is what I am really missing in the title!

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by sn0wball » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:41 pm

DandyDust wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:58 am
In Panzer Corps I. terrain types dont play a roll (besides rivers, bridges and wheater as such)
It does ? Infantry gets a huge bonus in closed terrain, for example.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by scipion1175 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:45 pm

I played the serie since panzer general 1 and I can't wait to see this new legend come to life!

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by DandyDust » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:02 am

sn0wball wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:41 pm
DandyDust wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:58 am
In Panzer Corps I. terrain types dont play a roll (besides rivers, bridges and wheater as such)
It does ? Infantry gets a huge bonus in closed terrain, for example.
@snowball: That is mainly due to entranchement, isn´t it? (Makes the taking of "late" cities quiet difficult sometimes...)

Woods, plains, roads and other do none...

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by crusader007 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:41 am

can't wait :) looking forward :)

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Keen » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:53 am

I hope the units prices will be calculated better this time according to there power and utility.
You must use a more progressive scale IMHO.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by 13obo » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:10 pm

DandyDust wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:02 am
sn0wball wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:41 pm
DandyDust wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:58 am
In Panzer Corps I. terrain types dont play a roll (besides rivers, bridges and wheater as such)
It does ? Infantry gets a huge bonus in closed terrain, for example.
@snowball: That is mainly due to entranchement, isn´t it? (Makes the taking of "late" cities quiet difficult sometimes...)

Woods, plains, roads and other do none...
DandyDust, no, it is not due to entrenchment but due to "close combat" feature of many terrain hexes that trigger the "Close Defense" stat for non-infantry units. You should probably read the PZC manual.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #1

Post by Intenso82 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:10 pm

Rudankort wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:04 am
- Split crippled unit and run in opposite directions to maximize its chances of survival
Sounds good. It's funny. :D

Well, even a quick capture of empty cities.
And the cover of the retreat of the other half ...

I hope AI will also be able to use these opportunities.
AlbertoC wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:14 pm
It works like this: when a group of units is encircled by the enemy (only “passable” terrain needs to be blocked), it no longer receives any supply, and on top of this, encircled units will get a progressive combat penalty every turn.
In the screenshot, we do not see if the friendly airfield is participating in the blockade or everything is done by the infantry unit.

In any case, the system of encirclements can be of three levels:
  • Tactical.
    Full encirclement. Blocked all available escape routes.
    If the unit is suppressed, it surrenders.
    The unit receives a full penalty.
  • Operational
    When a unit falls into the enemy ZOC.
    Like on a picture.
    148.jpg
    148.jpg (63.43 KiB) Viewed 1236 times
    There is no dense circle. The unit can still break through the encirclement.
    But if he does not, on the next turn he will begin to receive half the penalties.
  • Strategic - Missing-
    But since we saw in the screenshot that there will be resources/supply points.
    That strategic encirclement can be made by cutting supply lines by capturing/destroying supply hubs (resource-generated hexes).

Having all this it would be nice to have the opportunity and the game mechanics to somehow influence and help the blocked units.
For this can use transport ships and aircraft.
Having given them the opportunity to start empty and carry "supplies" for the blocked units or the encircled region.
When they are above the unit or next to the encircled region the unit disappears and the blocked units receive a freeze/decrease/reset of the penalty.
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