Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

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dalfrede
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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by dalfrede » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:59 am

Rudankort wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:06 pm
In our last internal discussion my vote was for leaving cavalry in infantry class, but moving motorcycles to recon. But Kresimir is not convinced. His preference is to keep the recon class more "uniform". Anything can happen before the release, we shall see. BTW, how do you imagine them being in two classes at the same time?
Its a issue of making the units more effective.
Motorcycle stats make it good infantry, reconmove makes it very good.
I play GC39 with 6 Krads and 2 regular inf. [Nico's equipment mod]

Cavalry is weak, and almost useless, the new Recon trait might make more useful.

So recons with close trait, or infantry with recon trait would help.
Or make them dragoons, recon with switch to infantry.

Plus I am greedy, I want the best units possible. :mrgreen:

Note: there is discussion in the PzC forum on towed AT that wants a 'dismount when attacked' trait that might also apply to dragoons.
Or perhaps 'dismount after attacked', The first attack hits the transport, the second attack hits a dismounted unit.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by Kerensky » Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:50 am

Rudankort wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:06 pm
In our last internal discussion my vote was for leaving cavalry in infantry class, but moving motorcycles to recon. But Kresimir is not convinced. His preference is to keep the recon class more "uniform". Anything can happen before the release, we shall see. BTW, how do you imagine them being in two classes at the same time?
I don't think I have any prejudice about where cavalry or motorcycles end up. I'll be looking more at the rosters of the unit classes more instead. Is there enough infantry and recon variety? Is one class overloaded with too many pieces while the other is stripped bare? Do these units all have at least some kind of purpose? Not all units need to be overpowered, but they all should serve some kind of useful purpose. I recall having to rebalance quite a few units post 1.0 PzC to correct an overabundance of purpose-less units. Of course balancing them against their historical stats and technical specs has to also be respected, so it's not always as easy as just giving recon units good stats to suddenly make them good units.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by proline » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:50 am

Rudankort wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:06 pm
In our last internal discussion my vote was for leaving cavalry in infantry class, but moving motorcycles to recon. But Kresimir is not convinced. His preference is to keep the recon class more "uniform". Anything can happen before the release, we shall see. BTW, how do you imagine them being in two classes at the same time?
What class things are in matters more than it should in PzC, because switch units can only be upgraded in their base class. So when that LRDG unit starts to get obsolete you can't upgrade them to a newer infantry unit, nor can you upgrade that 8.8cm flak into a dedicated AT gun even though you've been using it as such. Hopefully these kind of things get addressed. Interestingly enough, you can easily fix the problem in PzC by removing the no purchase trait from the affected units, but not many people know how to do that kind of thing.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by Gwaylare » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:48 pm

Rudankort wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:13 pm
Well to be fair, when many artillery types have a range of 3 hexes, putting ships above that range does make some sense. :) But I agree with you that there were quite some problems with naval implementation in Panzer Corps. Is there any other WW2 TBS where you actually enjoy the implementation of naval warfare?
Well I tried to imagine Panzer Corps as a small scale tactical game, like you do in table top games. So this does work pretty perfect with combined arms of different units then. Ok you have to overlook that cities are named like paris, moscow or kiev. In my eyes that are just villages or points of interest. So this does work much better on multiplayer maps or even random maps :D
But this does not work well together with battleships or carriers. So may be I was just shocked about your focus of naval engagement in random maps.

Ok to be fair there is no game were I enjoy the interaction of naval combat and ground combat. The problem is you need a complex set of rules for ground combat. In addition you need total different and again complex set of rules for naval combat, they are not just swimming ground untis. On top of this you need a set of rules for interaction between naval units and ground units. Even games like Hearts of Iron struggles with naval combat and they do not even touch the interaction of ground and naval combat.
So I am totaly satisfied by having a good set of rules for ground combat and skip the rest. So I do like those riverboats in Stalingrad. But for example the navy in Italy, which is able to supress a Panther completely, so that he has to surrender to recon :shock: is just to much. Artillery (especicially self-propelled) already has a major impact on the battlefield, there is no need to have swimming artillery.
May be I am looking to much out of a perspective of a muliplayer gamer. AI is not concentrating fire and exploiting suppression like a human player does, so may be the effect of navy units is not as high in the campaign.

For all the landing theatres were ships are involved the main part is missing. The attack from a ship mounted ground unit to an adjacent ground field. Even a full suppressed unit will block the way onto the beach. So this is missing interaction here.

So I am curious to see your naval implementation in Panzer Corps II. Even if I am not very optimistic with it there is a great potential of improving things Panzer Corps was struggling with. But just the point that the old Panzer General already used ships within scenarios should not be an argument at all. For me it seems that a good naval combat just might be a bridge too far for Panzer Corps II.

Best regards
Gwaylare

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by Rudankort » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:20 pm

proline wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:50 am
What class things are in matters more than it should in PzC, because switch units can only be upgraded in their base class. So when that LRDG unit starts to get obsolete you can't upgrade them to a newer infantry unit, nor can you upgrade that 8.8cm flak into a dedicated AT gun even though you've been using it as such. Hopefully these kind of things get addressed. Interestingly enough, you can easily fix the problem in PzC by removing the no purchase trait from the affected units, but not many people know how to do that kind of thing.
Panzer Corps 2 has a cross-class upgrade option between "related" classes, which can be done at the expense of some experience. Right now this parameter is set to 100 (1 star).

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by Rudankort » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:57 pm

Gwaylare wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:48 pm
But for example the navy in Italy, which is able to supress a Panther completely, so that he has to surrender to recon :shock: is just to much.
So, how would you implement effects of a massive naval bombardment on a single Panther unit? I mean hey, those are some huge shells. :) For example, Bismarck main caliber had shells like 800 kg (compare it to 25 kg shell of an IS-2). Even if direct hits are rare, those Panthers would find themselves quite shaken, with broken communications, and standing in terrain resembling lunar landscape.

I think, surrender to recon is a separate issue, because if this happens to you, you probably won't care much how exactly Panther was suppressed to such a high degree. In Panzer Corps 2 we are doing some tweaks in this department, so that even fully suppressed units do not surrender to something which does not pose a serious enough threat to them.
Gwaylare wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:48 pm
Artillery (especicially self-propelled) already has a major impact on the battlefield, there is no need to have swimming artillery.
I wonder what exactly you mean by "need" in this context. In some respects, capital ships are similar to artillery, but they are also different in that you cannot reach them with ground units (but can reach them with your own ships and submarines), plus they can only affect a certain part of the map which is close to the coast (and even then, battleship spotted in one place cannot teleport to another quickly, so you can take this into account when planning your actions). So, at the very least, this adds some variety to the game. But there are even more important reasons for the current behavior of capital ships - see below.
Gwaylare wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:48 pm
May be I am looking to much out of a perspective of a muliplayer gamer. AI is not concentrating fire and exploiting suppression like a human player does, so may be the effect of navy units is not as high in the campaign.
I'll keep this in mind when checking the balance of ships and tanks in the new e-file. But part of the problem might be that Italy scenario in particular was not designed for Multiplayer in the first place. :)
Gwaylare wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:48 pm
For all the landing theatres were ships are involved the main part is missing. The attack from a ship mounted ground unit to an adjacent ground field. Even a full suppressed unit will block the way onto the beach. So this is missing interaction here.
This is actually a great observation, and something I've been also thinking about recently (in connection to Archipelago map). Did you encounter this problem in your practical play? I mean, did your opponents try to prevent your landings by placing a unit in every single coast hex?

I think, this problem could actually be solved quite easily. In addition to "disembark" on a free hex, we could add "attack and disembark" action which would happen on a coast hex taken by the enemy. When you do this, a normal attack happens but with a significant disadvantage to the attacker (similar to river effects, but maybe even more severe, and maybe more specialized by unit type, like infantry getting less penalties than the rest). If after combat target hex was vacated (because the enemy was destroyed, retreated or surrendered), the attacker disembarks. But in this scenario, the role of capital ships becomes critical. They really do need the firepower to affect ground units positioned on the coast, even if that's mostly suppression. Then, this scenario of "attack and disembark" becomes feasible. That's why I think that the current implementation of capital ships is not necessarily bad. Note that with the addition of shallow sea, big ships will not be able to approach the coast like they do in Panzer Corps, so they will not reach so far inland with their attacks.
Gwaylare wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:48 pm
So I am curious to see your naval implementation in Panzer Corps II. Even if I am not very optimistic with it there is a great potential of improving things Panzer Corps was struggling with. For me it seems that a good naval combat just might be a bridge too far for Panzer Corps II.
I understand where your pessimism is coming from: naval war IS difficult to implement in a hex-based TBS. :) However, if it's possible at all, Panzer Corps has no less chance than any other game. In some sense, it has an advantage, because it already has a good and time proven ground component, so we have a basis to connect naval stuff to.
Gwaylare wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:48 pm
But just the point that the old Panzer General already used ships within scenarios should not be an argument at all.
This was not my argument though. I said that those scenarios were some of the most memorable. It's easy to see why. They added a much welcome variety to the campaign, and required the player to think how to play best in a new and unfamiliar gameplay situation. I would argue that even with the current simplistic rules, removing the ships from the game would gain nothing and only make the game less interesting and varied overall than it is now.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by Molve » Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:10 pm

13obo wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:24 pm
If Rudankort hadn't answered so politely and nicely, I'd have said "Molve got burned". But he was great with examples of people's varied play styles and explained his insider thinking brilliantly, so let's just say I think Rudankort just won here.

Sorry, I don't mean to start a flame war but rather to point out that his involvement recently with the community, has been nothing but brilliant and exemplary for anyone else. Please keep it up and whatever future controversial topics/debates arise, I'll know that we're in the best of hands!
I happily burn when the fire is of this quality!

(Please excuse the confused metaphors...)

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by Gwaylare » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:12 pm

Rudankort wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:57 pm
Gwaylare wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:48 pm
But for example the navy in Italy, which is able to supress a Panther completely, so that he has to surrender to recon :shock: is just to much.
So, how would you implement effects of a massive naval bombardment on a single Panther unit? I mean hey, those are some huge shells. :) For example, Bismarck main caliber had shells like 800 kg (compare it to 25 kg shell of an IS-2). Even if direct hits are rare, those Panthers would find themselves quite shaken, with broken communications, and standing in terrain resembling lunar landscape.
This is not a question of pure realism. For sure a battleship is able to destroy or suppress a heavy tank, but when did this happen?

So an idea would be to restrict attacks of ships to coastal regions only. The main reason was to support landing opperation. So ships should be able to reduce entrenchment or destroy bunkers. They should be able to suppress units. They should not be able to fire into the inland even if in range. The chance to destroy units should be minimal.
May be it would help to introduce a new terrain "beach" which could by entered by ground units and landing boats, but not ships. Beaches should be easy to reach for infantry but much harder for vehicles. Landing boats are able to attack units on the beach. Beaches should be close combat terrain and infantry mounted on a landing boat should perform a close combat attack against vehicles. Not every coast has to be a beach, so beaches are prefered landing zones.
Ships could get a chance to change the terrain of a beach to something which does give an attack of a landing boat an significant bonus for one turn. May be they can perform defensive fire as well for units disembarked to a beach.

This will concentrate ships on a role they did perform and will differ them from artillery. Without ships it should just be possible to land a unit by suprise. Together with ships it might be possible to fight through coastal defence.
Rudankort wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:57 pm
Gwaylare wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:48 pm
For all the landing theatres were ships are involved the main part is missing. The attack from a ship mounted ground unit to an adjacent ground field. Even a full suppressed unit will block the way onto the beach. So this is missing interaction here.
This is actually a great observation, and something I've been also thinking about recently (in connection to Archipelago map). Did you encounter this problem in your practical play? I mean, did your opponents try to prevent your landings by placing a unit in every single coast hex?
Sure I do. With a major landing operation like in Italy it is not possible to block all the fields, but a lot of. Because you do have a turn to react before disembarking is possible you are able to block the most dangerous units and allow weaker units to disembark. No problem if the artillery will land first together with AA ;-) For Italy I did a lot of tests. And especially fast mobile AA is perfect to threaten aircraft on one hand a block landing crafts on the other. Cheap italien infantry does work well either.
Even if the first wave is able to disembark and move forward they will have a hard time because next waves will occupy the fields behind an it is quite easy to let those units surrender.

In most scenarios the problem was solved by having a beach head already. But this will not work on those random map you have in mind.
So we had the discussion to play sea lion within the tournament but skiped this map. So in sea lion 40 allies have 10 free core slots to buy cheap infantry and block the coast with infantry and ships. I do not think that much germans will reach the british mainland. But I did not test this.

So if you want to perform any test, just let me know.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by proline » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:41 am

Rudankort wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:57 pm
I think, surrender to recon is a separate issue, because if this happens to you, you probably won't care much how exactly Panther was suppressed to such a high degree. In Panzer Corps 2 we are doing some tweaks in this department, so that even fully suppressed units do not surrender to something which does not pose a serious enough threat to them.
It's funny people always complain about this because it was extremely common in WW2 for units that were sufficiently beat and demoralized up to surrender to inferior forces, not to mention elsewhere in history. Hell, a reasonably well equipped US force of 2,400 with fortifications and guns surrendered Detroit to a mobile British / aboriginal force of 1,300.
Rudankort wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:57 pm
Gwaylare wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:48 pm
For all the landing theatres were ships are involved the main part is missing. The attack from a ship mounted ground unit to an adjacent ground field. Even a full suppressed unit will block the way onto the beach. So this is missing interaction here.
This is actually a great observation, and something I've been also thinking about recently (in connection to Archipelago map). Did you encounter this problem in your practical play? I mean, did your opponents try to prevent your landings by placing a unit in every single coast hex?
You do know SSI solved this question back in 1995 right? Back then there were beach hexes you could disembark onto but land units couldn't move onto them, therefore there was no way to block the disembarkation though you could make it so the unit would be blocked from moving inland without a fight. In the screenshot below, the transport can disembark on the hex right where it is.
Image

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by Rudankort » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:26 am

proline wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:41 am
You do know SSI solved this question back in 1995 right? Back then there were beach hexes you could disembark onto but land units couldn't move onto them, therefore there was no way to block the disembarkation though you could make it so the unit would be blocked from moving inland without a fight. In the screenshot below, the transport can disembark on the hex right where it is.
I don't remember such behavior, and I could not repro it in PGF and in PGDOS either:

Image

Image

Image

Am I doing it wrong?

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by Gwaylare » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:31 am

proline wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:41 am
Rudankort wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:57 pm
I think, surrender to recon is a separate issue, because if this happens to you, you probably won't care much how exactly Panther was suppressed to such a high degree. In Panzer Corps 2 we are doing some tweaks in this department, so that even fully suppressed units do not surrender to something which does not pose a serious enough threat to them.
It's funny people always complain about this because it was extremely common in WW2 for units that were sufficiently beat and demoralized up to surrender to inferior forces, not to mention elsewhere in history. Hell, a reasonably well equipped US force of 2,400 with fortifications and guns surrendered Detroit to a mobile British / aboriginal force of 1,300.
Proline I do not complain about the mechanic of surrendering. I like this very much, it is the salt in the soup. Without a mechanic like this it is just dealing damage to each other. This mechanic is quite good balanced by positioning your units. The available hexes just limit the use of artillery and especially to concentration of lots of artillery to single point. With lots of ships you are able to concentrate fire to a single field. In my eyes this does break the balance. So I do not have a problem with a surrender of a Panther itself, but I have a problem with the availability of about 10 artillery attacks to suppress the Panther. When you try to concentrate fire just with artillery you have to plan a lot about positions. May be you have to risk something because of bad positioning to get an additional artillery attack. After all you will get 3 may be 4 attacks. With ships this is just straightforward, without any plan, without any risk, without any thoughts about ammo.

Proline I like this idea about a beach to land on with a unit.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by huckc » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:15 am

Gwaylare wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:12 pm
This is not a question of pure realism. For sure a battleship is able to destroy or suppress a heavy tank, but when did this happen?
Not a battleship but there was a famous duel between Tigers and a US Navy destroyer, USS Edison, during the Salerno invasion in Italy. The Tigers actually shot at the destroyer and unfortunately for them, the destroyer shot back.
The Germans were now making a terrific counterattack on our precarious landing area. Some of the Tiger (Mark VI) tanks were actually moving southward along the beach to the beachhead. We (the Edison) were faced with counter battery fire from these tanks and other Wehrmacht gun emplacements throughout the remainder of this engagement. The flat trajectoried 88 mm shell had a unique piercing sound as it passed between our Director and the #1 stack.
...
he told vividly of tanks piled up in rubble and how attack after attack of the German forces had been blunted, and finally turned back, and the beachhead made secure. Again, by mail we received from this expressive and appreciative source, photographs showing the terrific damage inflicted on twelve German tanks. They were piled up like scrap iron. Many of us were truly amazed at the localization of effective blast damage from concentrated 5" 38 HC fire.
http://www.daileyint.com/seawar/seawar8.htm

e:
Also this Tiger was flipped over by a battleship
http://i.imgur.com/zf8REAe.jpg

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by proline » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:25 am

Rudankort wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:26 am
proline wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:41 am
You do know SSI solved this question back in 1995 right? Back then there were beach hexes you could disembark onto but land units couldn't move onto them, therefore there was no way to block the disembarkation though you could make it so the unit would be blocked from moving inland without a fight. In the screenshot below, the transport can disembark on the hex right where it is.
I don't remember such behavior, and I could not repro it in PGF and in PGDOS either:

Image

Image

Image

Am I doing it wrong?
In your top screen shot, you should be able to click the ground right where you are. It doesn't light up all the time but it still works. I had the Mac and Windows versions- not sure if that's the same as the DOS though.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by Rudankort » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:51 am

proline wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:25 am
In your top screen shot, you should be able to click the ground right where you are. It doesn't light up all the time but it still works. I had the Mac and Windows versions- not sure if that's the same as the DOS though.
That's what I did - that's why the cursor is over the unit. I've also tried to do it in PG Win but no luck. But ok, never mind. PG had many different versions, which did not always behave identically, so maybe somewhere SSI did it. Or maybe it was just a bug. :) In any event, I'll think about adding something similar.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by proline » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:49 pm

Rudankort wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:51 am
proline wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:25 am
In your top screen shot, you should be able to click the ground right where you are. It doesn't light up all the time but it still works. I had the Mac and Windows versions- not sure if that's the same as the DOS though.
That's what I did - that's why the cursor is over the unit. I've also tried to do it in PG Win but no luck. But ok, never mind. PG had many different versions, which did not always behave identically, so maybe somewhere SSI did it. Or maybe it was just a bug. :) In any event, I'll think about adding something similar.
Yeah it could be that it was a bug in one version or another. It looked a little weird having a unit on a hex that was mostly water, but the point being having hexes you can land on but not move onto from land solved the problem we're talking about. It is historically accurate as well. The allied were able to land at low tide on land that the Germans couldn't "occupy" due to it being in the tidal zone. They did of course put obstacles and mines there, but I'm not sure we really need to model it in that much detail. Of course if you run out of things to do you could model tidal hexes. It might make for interesting scenarios of you have to get off them in a certain number of turns and can only use them at certain times.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by ptje63 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:40 pm

Would like to make a (last minute?) request for a better management of buying / upgrading units. As I am trying more difficult levels cutting costs is becoming more and more essential. I have a battered 5 strength top Tiger unit which has perfect heros to be changed to a Panther A. But it turns out its cheaper to first upgrade to the Panther, and THEN reinforce back to 10 strength - instead of reinforcing the Tiger back to 10 strength and THEN upgrade to Panter A.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by jad43 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:08 pm

Maps look good however, are all the scenarios planned to be random in design...so there would be no more historical battles?
What about city battles, many battles were in and around cities from small villages to big cities...?

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by Rudankort » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:40 pm

jad43 wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:08 pm
Maps look good however, are all the scenarios planned to be random in design...so there would be no more historical battles?
NO! Of course not. We consider historical campaigns very important, and this aspect will be developed no less than in Panzer Corps 1. Everything you see in this dev diary is extra, not a replacement for the kind of content which most of out players always enjoyed.
jad43 wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:08 pm
What about city battles, many battles were in and around cities from small villages to big cities...?
Urban battles are not featured in random content - yet, but this is in the plans. Historical campaigns will also feature them.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by Kerensky » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:06 pm

ptje63 wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:40 pm
Would like to make a (last minute?) request for a better management of buying / upgrading units. As I am trying more difficult levels cutting costs is becoming more and more essential. I have a battered 5 strength top Tiger unit which has perfect heros to be changed to a Panther A. But it turns out its cheaper to first upgrade to the Panther, and THEN reinforce back to 10 strength - instead of reinforcing the Tiger back to 10 strength and THEN upgrade to Panter A.
I'm hoping for more clarity in these regards too. So many strange and completely hidden values at work here in Panzer Corps. I think they're fine to have because they add extra levels of fine tuning and unit management, but I will strongly aim for them to be more clear and actually written down in game somewhere, such as in tooltips or pop ups or things of that nature. Because the difference between saving prestige for not refitting during a scenario and getting it all free during deploy of the next really stacks up, but it's not really explained anywhere. It's also pretty gimmicky. So we'll see what the new systems do.

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Re: Panzer Corps 2 - Dev Diary #6

Post by Flynnstone03 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:17 am

Everything looks great! I just have a quick question for the devs though. In one of the previous Dev Diaries it said the rosters of more minor nations would be expanded. How much does this apply to France? Will we see tanks like the ARL44 in the game? I'm asking because I like to design campaigns where it's possible for the allies to hold onto France. With that in mind it would be great if France had access to more advanced equipment so they can still play a active role in the scenarios after 1940 when all their tanks start to become obsolete.

(This was reposted from a different dev diary because my question was never answered)

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