Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

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Salivan
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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by Salivan » Mon May 13, 2019 11:49 pm

I want it!

Dux Limitis
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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by Dux Limitis » Tue May 14, 2019 3:28 am

I hope this time can also add the back rank archers to the late roman infantry units.

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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Tue May 14, 2019 5:02 am

Dux Limitis wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:28 am
I hope this time can also add the back rank archers to the late roman infantry units.
That will not be happening. But some of the Byzantine army lists have Skoutatoi units of 50% Bow, 50% Defensive Spearmen.

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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by Dux Limitis » Tue May 14, 2019 9:38 am

SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:02 am
Dux Limitis wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:28 am
I hope this time can also add the back rank archers to the late roman infantry units.
That will not be happening. But some of the Byzantine army lists have Skoutatoi units of 50% Bow, 50% Defensive Spearmen.
Late roman infantry units got 20% of bowmen,I think give them models and make them can do active shooting is better than let them act as defensive POA.

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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by SnuggleBunnies » Tue May 14, 2019 1:28 pm

You've had this discussion multiple times with RBS. He's been very clear: it's not going to happen. I don't think trying to open the discussion for the 5th or 6th time is going to change that.

Dux Limitis
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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by Dux Limitis » Tue May 14, 2019 1:45 pm

SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:28 pm
You've had this discussion multiple times with RBS. He's been very clear: it's not going to happen. I don't think trying to open the discussion for the 5th or 6th time is going to change that.
Just hope one day he will change the mind,most of times the enemy AI will choose not charge to the late infantry units who got darts and back rank archers as defensive POA,I think you have already tried,if can't do active shooting,there're very less ways to force the enemy charge and make you very passive(If your army's main build is infantry),you have to charge to the enemy,suicidal,and will break the formation,especially when facing the sassanid persian,it shouldn't be like this infact,and late roman infantry units can do active shooting in the FOG1 I remembered.

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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by edb1815 » Wed May 15, 2019 5:44 pm

Dux Limitis wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:45 pm
SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:28 pm
You've had this discussion multiple times with RBS. He's been very clear: it's not going to happen. I don't think trying to open the discussion for the 5th or 6th time is going to change that.
Just hope one day he will change the mind,most of times the enemy AI will choose not charge to the late infantry units who got darts and back rank archers as defensive POA,I think you have already tried,if can't do active shooting,there're very less ways to force the enemy charge and make you very passive(If your army's main build is infantry),you have to charge to the enemy,suicidal,and will break the formation,especially when facing the sassanid persian,it shouldn't be like this infact,and late roman infantry units can do active shooting in the FOG1 I remembered.
Just FYI in the TT game the back rank archers are defensive POA only.

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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by schmolywar » Thu May 16, 2019 3:20 am

I wonder what status the muslim conquest cavalry of Khalid ibn al-Walids unit will have. Reading up on his merits (winning over 200 battles without defeat coming from a bedouin tribe and fighting superpowers) one could well argue they were elite.

Dux Limitis
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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by Dux Limitis » Thu May 16, 2019 10:47 am

edb1815 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:44 pm
Dux Limitis wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:45 pm
SnuggleBunnies wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:28 pm
You've had this discussion multiple times with RBS. He's been very clear: it's not going to happen. I don't think trying to open the discussion for the 5th or 6th time is going to change that.
Just hope one day he will change the mind,most of times the enemy AI will choose not charge to the late infantry units who got darts and back rank archers as defensive POA,I think you have already tried,if can't do active shooting,there're very less ways to force the enemy charge and make you very passive(If your army's main build is infantry),you have to charge to the enemy,suicidal,and will break the formation,especially when facing the sassanid persian,it shouldn't be like this infact,and late roman infantry units can do active shooting in the FOG1 I remembered.
Just FYI in the TT game the back rank archers are defensive POA only.
But fog1 and 2 are not TT games...

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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by ringoblood » Thu May 16, 2019 2:07 pm

I'm getting happy about this so is my wife. Can't wait to play us some Viking.

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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by edb1815 » Thu May 16, 2019 4:50 pm

Dux Limitis wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:47 am
edb1815 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:44 pm
Dux Limitis wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:45 pm


Just hope one day he will change the mind,most of times the enemy AI will choose not charge to the late infantry units who got darts and back rank archers as defensive POA,I think you have already tried,if can't do active shooting,there're very less ways to force the enemy charge and make you very passive(If your army's main build is infantry),you have to charge to the enemy,suicidal,and will break the formation,especially when facing the sassanid persian,it shouldn't be like this infact,and late roman infantry units can do active shooting in the FOG1 I remembered.
Just FYI in the TT game the back rank archers are defensive POA only.
But fog1 and 2 are not TT games...
No but both are based on the TT game, which where the rear rank bowmen as a POA factor comes from.

Dux Limitis
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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by Dux Limitis » Fri May 17, 2019 1:24 pm

edb1815 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 4:50 pm
Dux Limitis wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:47 am
edb1815 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:44 pm


Just FYI in the TT game the back rank archers are defensive POA only.
But fog1 and 2 are not TT games...
No but both are based on the TT game, which where the rear rank bowmen as a POA factor comes from.
Based on but not all,and many things are different from the original table top game,FOG1 made the back rank archers can do active shooting but FOG2 not,I don't know why,really will make you very passive,the late roman army lists' main build is infantry,and roman cavalry is not good,if you try to use your cavalry to force the enemy attack,you will lost your cavalry probably.The infantry units got 20% archers as defensive POA,but if enemy don't charge,they're use less,and if infantry can't do active shooting,they can not force the enemy to charge too.At the end,well,you have to let your late infantry make suicidal charge to the enemy,and most of the infantry units will disrupted.You can try it by your self,especially when facing the cavalry army(mainly lance or horse archers) and mixed(mainly cavalry but with other units,like the sassanid persian) army.

edb1815
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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by edb1815 » Fri May 17, 2019 4:40 pm

Dux Limitis wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:24 pm
edb1815 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 4:50 pm
Dux Limitis wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:47 am

But fog1 and 2 are not TT games...
No but both are based on the TT game, which where the rear rank bowmen as a POA factor comes from.
Based on but not all,and many things are different from the original table top game,FOG1 made the back rank archers can do active shooting but FOG2 not,I don't know why,really will make you very passive,the late roman army lists' main build is infantry,and roman cavalry is not good,if you try to use your cavalry to force the enemy attack,you will lost your cavalry probably.The infantry units got 20% archers as defensive POA,but if enemy don't charge,they're use less,and if infantry can't do active shooting,they can not force the enemy to charge too.At the end,well,you have to let your late infantry make suicidal charge to the enemy,and most of the infantry units will disrupted.You can try it by your self,especially when facing the cavalry army(mainly lance or horse archers) and mixed(mainly cavalry but with other units,like the sassanid persian) army.
I was just pointing out where the idea came from. It is a way to simulate units that used missiles in a supporting function and to differentiate them from units of pure bowmen which are present in the late Roman armies. You should not think of them in an offensive way. Use the HI as you would any other HI without the supporting bows/darts. Why do you need to charge the cavalry? Horse archers will evade away and you have a bonus against a lancer charge. A late Roman army is a toolbox with many different units available to force the cavalry into a bad position.

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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by Dux Limitis » Sat May 18, 2019 10:23 am

edb1815 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:40 pm
Dux Limitis wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:24 pm
edb1815 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 4:50 pm


No but both are based on the TT game, which where the rear rank bowmen as a POA factor comes from.
Based on but not all,and many things are different from the original table top game,FOG1 made the back rank archers can do active shooting but FOG2 not,I don't know why,really will make you very passive,the late roman army lists' main build is infantry,and roman cavalry is not good,if you try to use your cavalry to force the enemy attack,you will lost your cavalry probably.The infantry units got 20% archers as defensive POA,but if enemy don't charge,they're use less,and if infantry can't do active shooting,they can not force the enemy to charge too.At the end,well,you have to let your late infantry make suicidal charge to the enemy,and most of the infantry units will disrupted.You can try it by your self,especially when facing the cavalry army(mainly lance or horse archers) and mixed(mainly cavalry but with other units,like the sassanid persian) army.
I was just pointing out where the idea came from. It is a way to simulate units that used missiles in a supporting function and to differentiate them from units of pure bowmen which are present in the late Roman armies. You should not think of them in an offensive way. Use the HI as you would any other HI without the supporting bows/darts. Why do you need to charge the cavalry? Horse archers will evade away and you have a bonus against a lancer charge. A late Roman army is a toolbox with many different units available to force the cavalry into a bad position.
If you're facing the horse archers then you don't charge,they will keep shooting to make heavy losses of your infantry,you have to do this,especially when they got large numbers.And if you're facing lancers,most of times they just don't charge and await yours late infantry charge to them,take a custom battle then you'll know.To force the cavalry into a bad position?Sorry,in custom battle when you play the late romans you only can deploy maximum 3 light ballistae and 3 massed archers,and massed archers are weak in close combat.The game don't allow the archers' shoot passed other units on the level ground so you have to deploy them in the main rank,if the cavalry charge to them especially the lancers,they will break quickly,amost useless.Roman cavalry is not good,if you let you cavalry try to force them to attack your infantry,most of the time it will only put your cavalry into a bad position,even needs some of your infantry to support them,then will breaking your main formation at last.If a large number of lancers stand in front of your army and you don't have enough ranged units(can do active shoot),what will you do?

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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by Jagger2002 » Mon May 20, 2019 4:49 am

The infantry units got 20% archers as defensive POA,but if enemy don't charge,they're use less
I have been playing around with those guys recently and that has been experience as well. There is very little incentive to attack them until it is time to roll them up.

Has anyone attempted a mod to experiment with them? The squads file lists them with 20% bows but the only 4 units with the 20% bows don't have the capability to fire. If they could, assuming they fired at 30% in the same manner as 50% bows fire at 75%, 3 units with concentrated fire would almost be equivalent to a full bow unit. Although even single units supplementing regular horse or foot bows would be useful for activating cohesion checks. I suspect if they had the capability, the cost per unit would need to go up. If the capability can be modded, might be fun to test them out. I assume any change would have to be done in the shooting or shooting logic section of the combat file.

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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by edb1815 » Mon May 20, 2019 5:02 pm

Dux Limitis wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:23 am
edb1815 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:40 pm
Dux Limitis wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:24 pm


Based on but not all,and many things are different from the original table top game,FOG1 made the back rank archers can do active shooting but FOG2 not,I don't know why,really will make you very passive,the late roman army lists' main build is infantry,and roman cavalry is not good,if you try to use your cavalry to force the enemy attack,you will lost your cavalry probably.The infantry units got 20% archers as defensive POA,but if enemy don't charge,they're use less,and if infantry can't do active shooting,they can not force the enemy to charge too.At the end,well,you have to let your late infantry make suicidal charge to the enemy,and most of the infantry units will disrupted.You can try it by your self,especially when facing the cavalry army(mainly lance or horse archers) and mixed(mainly cavalry but with other units,like the sassanid persian) army.
I was just pointing out where the idea came from. It is a way to simulate units that used missiles in a supporting function and to differentiate them from units of pure bowmen which are present in the late Roman armies. You should not think of them in an offensive way. Use the HI as you would any other HI without the supporting bows/darts. Why do you need to charge the cavalry? Horse archers will evade away and you have a bonus against a lancer charge. A late Roman army is a toolbox with many different units available to force the cavalry into a bad position.
If you're facing the horse archers then you don't charge,they will keep shooting to make heavy losses of your infantry,you have to do this,especially when they got large numbers.And if you're facing lancers,most of times they just don't charge and await yours late infantry charge to them,take a custom battle then you'll know.To force the cavalry into a bad position?Sorry,in custom battle when you play the late romans you only can deploy maximum 3 light ballistae and 3 massed archers,and massed archers are weak in close combat.The game don't allow the archers' shoot passed other units on the level ground so you have to deploy them in the main rank,if the cavalry charge to them especially the lancers,they will break quickly,amost useless.Roman cavalry is not good,if you let you cavalry try to force them to attack your infantry,most of the time it will only put your cavalry into a bad position,even needs some of your infantry to support them,then will breaking your main formation at last.If a large number of lancers stand in front of your army and you don't have enough ranged units(can do active shoot),what will you do?
I don't have to use them in a custom battle I have played both with and against late Roman armies in tournaments. You have to pin the lancers with your infantry and then hit them on the flank with your cavalry. It seems like you are thinking too linearly. Lancers can get out of position easily when they charge. Also don't forget you have the Auxilla Palatina to use in rough terrain.

Here are the statistics for the 2 late Roman armies used in the Digital League (W-D-L):

Romans (285-387AD) 17-6-16
Romans (425- 492AD) 18-0-12

Not all against cavalry armies of course, but still respectable records. Historically the Roman's didn't really rely massed offensive bowfire so IMO the defensive POA adequately recreates the use of the back rank archers.

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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by Dux Limitis » Tue May 21, 2019 3:30 am

Jagger2002 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 4:49 am
The infantry units got 20% archers as defensive POA,but if enemy don't charge,they're use less
I have been playing around with those guys recently and that has been experience as well. There is very little incentive to attack them until it is time to roll them up.

assuming they fired at 30% in the same manner as 50% bows fire at 75%, 3 units with concentrated fire would almost be equivalent to a full bow unit. Although even single units supplementing regular horse or foot bows would be useful for activating cohesion checks.
Totally right.

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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by Dux Limitis » Tue May 21, 2019 3:50 am

edb1815 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:02 pm
Dux Limitis wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:23 am
edb1815 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:40 pm


I was just pointing out where the idea came from. It is a way to simulate units that used missiles in a supporting function and to differentiate them from units of pure bowmen which are present in the late Roman armies. You should not think of them in an offensive way. Use the HI as you would any other HI without the supporting bows/darts. Why do you need to charge the cavalry? Horse archers will evade away and you have a bonus against a lancer charge. A late Roman army is a toolbox with many different units available to force the cavalry into a bad position.
If you're facing the horse archers then you don't charge,they will keep shooting to make heavy losses of your infantry,you have to do this,especially when they got large numbers.And if you're facing lancers,most of times they just don't charge and await yours late infantry charge to them,take a custom battle then you'll know.To force the cavalry into a bad position?Sorry,in custom battle when you play the late romans you only can deploy maximum 3 light ballistae and 3 massed archers,and massed archers are weak in close combat.The game don't allow the archers' shoot passed other units on the level ground so you have to deploy them in the main rank,if the cavalry charge to them especially the lancers,they will break quickly,amost useless.Roman cavalry is not good,if you let you cavalry try to force them to attack your infantry,most of the time it will only put your cavalry into a bad position,even needs some of your infantry to support them,then will breaking your main formation at last.If a large number of lancers stand in front of your army and you don't have enough ranged units(can do active shoot),what will you do?
I don't have to use them in a custom battle I have played both with and against late Roman armies in tournaments. You have to pin the lancers with your infantry and then hit them on the flank with your cavalry. It seems like you are thinking too linearly. Lancers can get out of position easily when they charge. Also don't forget you have the Auxilla Palatina to use in rough terrain.

Historically the Roman's didn't really rely massed offensive bowfire so IMO the defensive POA adequately recreates the use of the back rank archers
Most of the time I'm in campaign and custom battles against AI,the main cavalry army's AI(like sarmatians) mostly just DON'T charge when facing the late roman infantry units so don't say that "they can get out of position easily when they charge".And rough terrains?You don't have those "providential" rough grounds place in right postions and can put the enemy into bad situations every time.Especially on the steppe map

Arrian's against the Alans and Ammianus' the battle of Argentoratum in Res Gestae the backrank bowfire are based on the situations of enemy did active charge.In game they DON'T do active charge so the backrank archers as defensive POA points almost useless.Then I have to FORCED the enemy to charge so I need the backrank archers can do active shoot.

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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by edb1815 » Tue May 21, 2019 4:42 pm

Dux Limitis wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:50 am
edb1815 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:02 pm
Dux Limitis wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:23 am

If you're facing the horse archers then you don't charge,they will keep shooting to make heavy losses of your infantry,you have to do this,especially when they got large numbers.And if you're facing lancers,most of times they just don't charge and await yours late infantry charge to them,take a custom battle then you'll know.To force the cavalry into a bad position?Sorry,in custom battle when you play the late romans you only can deploy maximum 3 light ballistae and 3 massed archers,and massed archers are weak in close combat.The game don't allow the archers' shoot passed other units on the level ground so you have to deploy them in the main rank,if the cavalry charge to them especially the lancers,they will break quickly,amost useless.Roman cavalry is not good,if you let you cavalry try to force them to attack your infantry,most of the time it will only put your cavalry into a bad position,even needs some of your infantry to support them,then will breaking your main formation at last.If a large number of lancers stand in front of your army and you don't have enough ranged units(can do active shoot),what will you do?
I don't have to use them in a custom battle I have played both with and against late Roman armies in tournaments. You have to pin the lancers with your infantry and then hit them on the flank with your cavalry. It seems like you are thinking too linearly. Lancers can get out of position easily when they charge. Also don't forget you have the Auxilla Palatina to use in rough terrain.

Historically the Roman's didn't really rely massed offensive bowfire so IMO the defensive POA adequately recreates the use of the back rank archers
Most of the time I'm in campaign and custom battles against AI,the main cavalry army's AI(like sarmatians) mostly just DON'T charge when facing the late roman infantry units so don't say that "they can get out of position easily when they charge".And rough terrains?You don't have those "providential" rough grounds place in right postions and can put the enemy into bad situations every time.Especially on the steppe map

Arrian's against the Alans and Ammianus' the battle of Argentoratum in Res Gestae the backrank bowfire are based on the situations of enemy did active charge.In game they DON'T do active charge so the backrank archers as defensive POA points almost useless.Then I have to FORCED the enemy to charge so I need the backrank archers can do active shoot.

Well if they don't charge then you are still effectively pinning their best units with your infantry. You should be able to win elsewhere on the battlefield then. I agree that the terrain does not always favor the infantry. I mean that as an example of units to use if you did get favorable terrain.

I do have a campaign started I think it is the 3rd century crisis one but I don't recall this situation you describe. I will have to start it up again. When you say they don't charge how far away in hexes are they from the infantry - the lancers I mean. Do they ride up or sit at the baseline?

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Re: Field of Glory II - The Wolves have arrived

Post by Dux Limitis » Wed May 22, 2019 10:34 am

edb1815 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 4:42 pm
Dux Limitis wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:50 am
edb1815 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:02 pm


I don't have to use them in a custom battle I have played both with and against late Roman armies in tournaments. You have to pin the lancers with your infantry and then hit them on the flank with your cavalry. It seems like you are thinking too linearly. Lancers can get out of position easily when they charge. Also don't forget you have the Auxilla Palatina to use in rough terrain.

Historically the Roman's didn't really rely massed offensive bowfire so IMO the defensive POA adequately recreates the use of the back rank archers
Most of the time I'm in campaign and custom battles against AI,the main cavalry army's AI(like sarmatians) mostly just DON'T charge when facing the late roman infantry units so don't say that "they can get out of position easily when they charge".And rough terrains?You don't have those "providential" rough grounds place in right postions and can put the enemy into bad situations every time.Especially on the steppe map

Arrian's against the Alans and Ammianus' the battle of Argentoratum in Res Gestae the backrank bowfire are based on the situations of enemy did active charge.In game they DON'T do active charge so the backrank archers as defensive POA points almost useless.Then I have to FORCED the enemy to charge so I need the backrank archers can do active shoot.
I do have a campaign started I think it is the 3rd century crisis one but I don't recall this situation you describe. I will have to start it up again. When you say they don't charge how far away in hexes are they from the infantry - the lancers I mean. Do they ride up or sit at the baseline?
For late roman campaign you should play the stilicho's,not the 3rd century crisis.But if you just wanna meet this situation I suggest you should just start a custom battle between the late roman(313-378ad's list,you play the romans) and sarmatian(25-375ad's list).

And,some times they do have sit at the start line,but most of the time they'll ride up to your frontline then just wait in front of your infantry but they just don't charge.

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