confused : large formations and Teutonic knights

Field of Glory II: Medieval

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lapdog666
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confused : large formations and Teutonic knights

Post by lapdog666 »

1. teutonic knights have about 13-15% to win vs vs knights and seargents and kinghts and seargents have also about 15% to win vs teutons. How is that possible , teutons should have 10-15 more POA they are highly superior

2. Large spearmen (those with 3 rows) have exact same chances to win /lose against non large spearmen IN MELEE . its about 12-15% (percent changes because thats how game works)

is this working as designed or is it a bugg?
Paul59
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Re: confused : large formations and Teutonic knights

Post by Paul59 »

1) The Teutonic knights have an Experience and Elan rating of 225, so they only just fall into the Highly Superior category. Therefore they have a +12 POA advantage over ordinary knights in melee and impact. They are slightly better off, but not by much.

2) From Section 13.1 in the manual:

In shooting and close combat, infantry units larger than
standard-sized units of 8 models (in 2 ranks) count only the
first 2 ranks of models (representing 8 ranks of men) towards
“combat strength”, and cavalry units larger than 4 models
count only 4 models. Additional ranks do not count towards
“combat strength”, but they do provide resilience, and for some
types may provide extra rank bonuses (see Points of Advantage
below).

So the Deep spearmen will an advantage in later rounds of melee, once the smaller unit starts to take casualties.
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lapdog666
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Re: confused : large formations and Teutonic knights

Post by lapdog666 »

Paul59 wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:16 am 1) The Teutonic knights have an Experience and Elan rating of 225, so they only just fall into the Highly Superior category. Therefore they have a +12 POA advantage over ordinary knights in melee and impact. They are slightly better off, but not by much.

2) From Section 13.1 in the manual:

In shooting and close combat, infantry units larger than
standard-sized units of 8 models (in 2 ranks) count only the
first 2 ranks of models (representing 8 ranks of men) towards
“combat strength”, and cavalry units larger than 4 models
count only 4 models. Additional ranks do not count towards
“combat strength”, but they do provide resilience, and for some
types may provide extra rank bonuses (see Points of Advantage
below).

So the Deep spearmen will an advantage in later rounds of melee, once the smaller unit starts to take casualties.
i get the number 2 but 1 is not explained

Teutons should have about 5% more chances to win , yet they have exactly same odds of winning as inferior knights and seargents
Paul59
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Re: confused : large formations and Teutonic knights

Post by Paul59 »

Well you said it yourself "its about 12-15% (percent changes because thats how game works)".

From the manual again:

Note that the Win:Draw:Lose chances are estimates calculated
from a sample of 1000 test resolutions of the combat in question
– so each time they are recalculated the result may be slightly
different. This also explains why the Win:Lose chances for an
equal combat may not be shown as exactly equal. If you mouse
back and forth between your units in close combat (with no unit
currently selected) you will see the estimates change slightly
each time as they have been recalculated.

I have set up a test scenario, Knights charging Teutonics normally have a win percentage of between 11-12%. Teutonics charging Knights are 13-15%, so they do get a slight advantage. 12 POA isn't much of an advantage.
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lapdog666
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Re: confused : large formations and Teutonic knights

Post by lapdog666 »

Paul59 wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:43 am Well you said it yourself "its about 12-15% (percent changes because thats how game works)".

From the manual again:

Note that the Win:Draw:Lose chances are estimates calculated
from a sample of 1000 test resolutions of the combat in question
– so each time they are recalculated the result may be slightly
different. This also explains why the Win:Lose chances for an
equal combat may not be shown as exactly equal. If you mouse
back and forth between your units in close combat (with no unit
currently selected) you will see the estimates change slightly
each time as they have been recalculated.

I have set up a test scenario, Knights charging Teutonics normally have a win percentage of between 11-12%. Teutonics charging Knights are 13-15%, so they do get a slight advantage. 12 POA isn't much of an advantage.

so basically variation within the game calcuation eats 12 poa often
lapdog666
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Re: confused : large formations and Teutonic knights

Post by lapdog666 »

i m not sure why we have that at all. wouldnt it be better to have fixed percentages , based on POA

simple , clean ,fair
rbodleyscott
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Re: confused : large formations and Teutonic knights

Post by rbodleyscott »

lapdog666 wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:56 am i m not sure why we have that at all. wouldnt it be better to have fixed percentages , based on POA

simple , clean ,fair
The displayed percentages are not used to actually decide the combat, they are just an indication for the player of the (approximate) odds. As Paul says, they are estimates calculated from a sample of 1000 runs of the random part of the combat calculation. Thus the estimates vary slightly, but the actual odds don't.

Because the combat resolution code is very complex, it would be far too complicated to try to actually calculate the odds directly, and any error in the logic of that calculation would mean that the odds could be significantly mis-stated. The sampling method is guaranteed to be accurate within a few % variation. It isn't possible for there to be a significant error in the calculation, because it uses exactly the same combat resolution code as when the combat is actually resolved.

But the displayed odds are not used as part of the final combat resolution. They are just for display purposes.
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Horde
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Re: confused : large formations and Teutonic knights

Post by Horde »

lapdog666 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:49 pm 1. teutonic knights have about 13-15% to win vs vs knights and seargents and kinghts and seargents have also about 15% to win vs teutons. How is that possible , teutons should have 10-15 more POA they are highly superior

2. Large spearmen (those with 3 rows) have exact same chances to win /lose against non large spearmen IN MELEE . its about 12-15% (percent changes because thats how game works)

is this working as designed or is it a bugg?
Hum, when I played with low countries spearmen (deep) vs free canton spearmen (two rows), the Dutch seemed to win in prolonged engagements. Perhaps that non large spearmen had some advantage in quality or armour?
Paul59
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Re: confused : large formations and Teutonic knights

Post by Paul59 »

Horde wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:00 am
lapdog666 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:49 pm 1. teutonic knights have about 13-15% to win vs vs knights and seargents and kinghts and seargents have also about 15% to win vs teutons. How is that possible , teutons should have 10-15 more POA they are highly superior

2. Large spearmen (those with 3 rows) have exact same chances to win /lose against non large spearmen IN MELEE . its about 12-15% (percent changes because thats how game works)

is this working as designed or is it a bugg?
Hum, when I played with low countries spearmen (deep) vs free canton spearmen (two rows), the Dutch seemed to win in prolonged engagements. Perhaps that non large spearmen had some advantage in quality or armour?
No, it's because of what I explained in my first post:

In shooting and close combat, infantry units larger than
standard-sized units of 8 models (in 2 ranks) count only the
first 2 ranks of models (representing 8 ranks of men) towards
“combat strength”, and cavalry units larger than 4 models
count only 4 models. Additional ranks do not count towards
“combat strength”, but they do provide resilience, and for some
types may provide extra rank bonuses (see Points of Advantage
below).

So as the two units take casualties the Free Canton spearmen are immediately affected by the loss of men, whereas the Low Countries Spearmen continue fighting at full strength until they have only 8 models left.

Also, the Free Canton spearmen, being Medium Foot, suffer a cohesion test penalty if they lose in close combat to Heavy Foot, such as Low Countries Spearmen.

So due to these two factors Low Countries Spearmen will have an advantage in close combat, in the long run, over Free Canton troops.
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Horde
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Re: confused : large formations and Teutonic knights

Post by Horde »

Paul59 wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:37 amNo, it's because of what I explained in my first post:

In shooting and close combat, infantry units larger than
standard-sized units of 8 models (in 2 ranks) count only the
first 2 ranks of models (representing 8 ranks of men) towards
“combat strength”, and cavalry units larger than 4 models
count only 4 models. Additional ranks do not count towards
“combat strength”, but they do provide resilience, and for some
types may provide extra rank bonuses (see Points of Advantage
below).

So as the two units take casualties the Free Canton spearmen are immediately affected by the loss of men, whereas the Low Countries Spearmen continue fighting at full strength until they have only 8 models left.

Also, the Free Canton spearmen, being Medium Foot, suffer a cohesion test penalty if they lose in close combat to Heavy Foot, such as Low Countries Spearmen.

So due to these two factors Low Countries Spearmen will have an advantage in close combat, in the long run, over Free Canton troops.
You´re right, I didnt read your response the first time. My mistake, man.
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