FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

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Carriage
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Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by Carriage » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:39 am

Some things I've noticed. Things I can't find may well be in there. Some things are notes I made as I read the rules from the start and felt confused but were explained elsewhere.

Pg 14:
Troops allowed to assault - "You must be able to see the target..." I can't find how you actually determine this. i.e. Tracing a line from where to where. Do we use the shooting rules?
Assaulting Buildings,Obstacles and Redoubts - You count as defending a linear obstacle if you're in front edge contact. Should this also be both front corner contact like with rivers or can you not for example defend the inside of a curve on a raised road?
Pg 15:
Wheeling during an assault move - 2nd bullet point says wheel only as far as necessary. 3rd bullet point seems to suggest that you can wheel past this point up to where unit centres are lined up (as in V1).
Pg 16:
Irregular Light Cavalry - Counter charges are only allowed if they pass a CT. When reading the rules from the start I wasn't sure how it resolves if you fail. It's in the cohesion test table. Perhaps worth mentioning here that if the CT is failed it evades and doesn't drop a level.
Pg 20:
Reserves, reinforcements and flank marches - it may be worth reiterating what's in the turn sequence chart that off table arrivals all move first in the movement phase.
Reserves, reinforcements and flank marches - "Roll 1 dice in turn 1, 2 in turn 2 and so on until successful, requiring a 5 on 1 of the dice to arrive." Should be 5+ or 5 or more. Alternatively you could have a notation thing at the front of the rules.
Reserves, reinforcements and flank marches - Reserves just come on and you don't have to say where in the previous turn? It appears it's written that way and probably correct.
Pg 22:
Moving Backwards - What counts as an "intervening unit" between the unit wanting to back up and the enemy within 6 and behind its flank?
Pg 23:
Changes of facing - I believe you used to be able to change facing freely within 2MU to align with the nearest enemy. You can't do this in V2. This is probably my poor memory rather than anything wrong but worth checking.
Changes of formation - There's a typo, "To form Extended Line, the front bases remain stationery". Should be "stationary"
Changes of formation - Also under that bullet "but the original front line must be fully covered". It's not really ambiguous but should probably be consistent with "rear rank bases" and so "front rank bases".
Pg 24:
Moving through friendly units - The bullets are written (to me) as if you can only go through one unit or perhaps you need to test for each unit. Clarification would be helpful. Could reasonably happen if part of a second rank of units passing through units that are in side edge contact.
Pg 25:
During other phases - "A Commander may not join and Lead, or leave, a unit in already in contact with enemy." The addition of lead makes it seem like you can join and not lead but the glossary leads me to believe this is not the case.
Pg 26:
Moving into and out of Buildings - "however no CMT is required once Occupying to leave the building." perhaps add "except as a second move" May be unnecessary though.
Pg 27:
Making complex moves beyond 6MU of enemy - I believe there's technically no entry for a 3rd complex move which can happen if you do a complex and then a second complex. Arguably the 2nd complex move is still only 1 move but requires 2 tests and the cost for a test for a 2nd move is 1CP. Not sure changing this is going to clear anything up that much though.
Pg 29:
Units allowed to fire - "It must not have changed formation or retired as a reaction to an assault or firing earlier this move." I think if you say "either changed formation or retired" is would make it more clear that you can change formation and fire just not if you changed formation as a reaction to an assault.
Pg 32:
Supporting fire - "Use the quality of the primary unit for all support fire." What happens if you only have support fire as in the assault phase if cavalry without artillery is being charged?
Pg 34:
The effects on firing table - There's an asterix next to Driven Back to 3MU. I can't find the associated note. It appears to be 3rd bullet in the first box of bullets in the table.
Pg 36:
Dice Additions and Losses table - May be worth mentioning uphill is defined in the glossary. May be unnecessary and hard to fit though.
Pg 40:
Combat Resolution Table - According to the table it seems to me that only one unit retires if both units break. This is cleared up on page 41. Perhaps remove "contact" from the "then active player" bit. There shouldn't be any other broken not in contact units to mess up the sequence? Need to be sure though.
Pg 43:
Retiring units (prev page) - Third bullet "If the unit becomes Broken, or is already Broken, then it is Destroyed." I think destroyed isn't defined anywhere. It's used in a few places but maybe add it to the glossary that you remove the models (immediately?). Should be self evident though.
Meeting Obstructions in a Retire Move - "If it cannot avoid the obstruction by sliding, refer to the following table:" Avoid the obstruction or avoid all obstructions?
Pg 44:
Pursuers whose Original Target has moved out of reach - This section says within 2MU of the retiring unit's path of retirement. I'm pretty sure the assault chapter said 2MU of original position
Pg 45:
Eligibility to Pass Through - 1st bullet, 3rd sub-bullet, "Blocking wavering units break" and immediately outcome move? That may be written elsewhere but it would be consistent with the previous bullet and easier to look up.
Pg 46:
3rd bullet - "A broken unit led by a commnder is contacted by an enemy unit" I can't work out which bit of the casualties to commanders table to use. I assume it's the broken under 3 hits from combat but we don't roll dice so it's not technically correct.
This same section - Also, test when "A unit led by a commander takes 3 or more hits in a single Firing or Combat Phase." and "A broken unit led by a commander is contacted by an enemy unit." This means newly contacted, not currently in contact, so you don't take two tests for being broken in combat after taking 3 hits, or do you?
Pg 49:
Spent Units - "A Spent unit requires the expenditure of a Command Point to declare an assault or an intercept move unless they are Shock Cavalry or Guard Infantry." This is different to who needs to CMT in the table on 27 "Assaulting while Spent unless you are: Shock; assaulting a flank or rear; or assaulting waverers." Do you need an extra CP if you're not shock cav or guard inf plus a test (and so another CP) unless you're shock, assaulting flank or rear or assaulting waverers"
Pg 55:
Bridges and Fords - "If their move only gets them partially across the bridge or ford, they do not a 2nd CMT in the following turn to complete the move." Should probably be "they do not NEED a 2nd CMT".
Pg 60:
Superimposing terrain features - From front to back this is I believe the first spot you find that large can be more than one selection. It's explained later (Pg 64) but perhaps should be in the selecting terrain bit on 57-58.
Pg 66:
Cover - "The following terrain is considered to provide cover to bases entirely within them:" This contradicts how some only require 3 corners of each base.
Defended, Obstacle - As mentioned earlier, what about two front corners
Pg 68:
Points of Advantage - These seem to not be mentioned in the firing rules but are mentioned here that they're used in the firing phase. Maybe a copy/paste issue from V1. Chapter names are also different, maybe.
Pg 69:
Support Area - The firing and combat areas seem to be explaining the same thing in two different ways. Diagrams would clear things up but the text should perhaps be reexamined.

BrettPT
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Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by BrettPT » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:52 am

Wow, some great work there Carriage - many thanks for your efforts.
I've printed your post out and we'll go through it and make required corrections & clarifications after the Melbourne tournie

Cheers
Brett

Bar853
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Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by Bar853 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:44 am

Don't know if this has been picked up yet, could not see it in the other corrections. FOG N 2nd edition version 5 - page 66 "Area Features" these measurements should be in MU's not inches or cm in order to cover all scales. This was copied from the version 1 book, page 96 which is in inches and cm but in the index page 108 it clarifies it in MU's. It might be worth putting it back into the index again.

Had a great time at CANCON and great meeting all those there. I will be planning on bring an army and playing next year.
Any chance of seeing a battle report and army list of those who participated.

Thanks All

Bar853
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Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by Bar853 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:06 am

Carrying on with some minor corrections. Page 26 "Moving into and out of buildings". 2nd dot point, there seems to be one to many "is" in the paragraph."a unit must pass a CTM which is not is considered an advance for the purposes of needing to test to advance."

Page 29 "Firing and Combat". Dot point 4, might need to drop the first "or" for a comma.

Page 32 "Extended Line". Dot point 5, missing an 'if'. "The unit cannot fire at medium range "if" either half fired at close range."

That's it for now .

richafricanus
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Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by richafricanus » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:43 pm

Thanks for picking up those errata Jason. Very helpful

It was good to see you at Cancon. Definitely expect you to be playing next year! Does that mean you will have to produce a 15mm army? Happy to lend you and anyone else one if that helps.

I'll send out the army lists used to anyone who's interested.

richafricanus
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Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by richafricanus » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:49 pm

Jason, please pm me your email address. I have a long mailing list of fog n players but not sure which address is yours!

BrettPT
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Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by BrettPT » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:08 pm

Hi again
We've just finishing the latest draft, with errata and any anomalies uncovered in the 3 recent tournaments included. We've also gone through your list below again and I thought you might like some feedback.

To answer your queries:
Pg 14:
Troops allowed to assault - "You must be able to see the target..." I can't find how you actually determine this. i.e. Tracing a line from where to where. Do we use the shooting rules?
Use the visibility rules under the Terrain & Visibility Section. A reference to this now added to page 14.
Assaulting Buildings,Obstacles and Redoubts - You count as defending a linear obstacle if you're in front edge contact. Should this also be both front corner contact like with rivers or can you not for example defend the inside of a curve on a raised road?
Obstacles have been written out of v2 as being highly problematic in v1. Buildings have their own rules, rivers are now simply rough/disordering/impassable terrain that give defensive bonus, border walls are cover and we leave it to scenario designers to make up special rules for any other terrain if they want to (like the raised road at Aspern-Essling).
Pg 15:
Wheeling during an assault move - 2nd bullet point says wheel only as far as necessary. 3rd bullet point seems to suggest that you can wheel past this point up to where unit centres are lined up (as in V1).
this now tidied up.
Pg 16:
Irregular Light Cavalry - Counter charges are only allowed if they pass a CT. When reading the rules from the start I wasn't sure how it resolves if you fail. It's in the cohesion test table. Perhaps worth mentioning here that if the CT is failed it evades and doesn't drop a level.
"CT" has been changed to "CMT" and it clarified that you evade if the CMT is failed.
Pg 20:
Reserves, reinforcements and flank marches - it may be worth reiterating what's in the turn sequence chart that off table arrivals all move first in the movement phase.
Sequence Chart amended to match rules - you dice at start of movement phase but can come on at any time in the phase (so you can move friendly troops out of way to make room).
Reserves, reinforcements and flank marches - "Roll 1 dice in turn 1, 2 in turn 2 and so on until successful, requiring a 5 on 1 of the dice to arrive." Should be 5+ or 5 or more. Alternatively you could have a notation thing at the front of the rules.
Done
Reserves, reinforcements and flank marches - Reserves just come on and you don't have to say where in the previous turn? It appears it's written that way and probably correct.
Yes. You announce a turn ahead for Outflanks and Reinforcements, but Reserves just march on.
Pg 22:
Moving Backwards - What counts as an "intervening unit" between the unit wanting to back up and the enemy within 6 and behind its flank?
any friendly unit that even partly intervenes,
Pg 23:
Changes of facing - I believe you used to be able to change facing freely within 2MU to align with the nearest enemy. You can't do this in V2. This is probably my poor memory rather than anything wrong but worth checking.
Now needs a CMT.
Changes of formation - There's a typo, "To form Extended Line, the front bases remain stationery". Should be "stationary"
Fixed
Changes of formation - Also under that bullet "but the original front line must be fully covered". It's not really ambiguous but should probably be consistent with "rear rank bases" and so "front rank bases".
Done
Pg 24:
Moving through friendly units - The bullets are written (to me) as if you can only go through one unit or perhaps you need to test for each unit. Clarification would be helpful. Could reasonably happen if part of a second rank of units passing through units that are in side edge contact.
Now a little clearer. Also of assistance is the CMT chart itself, which is headed "...each line in the table is a separate CMT ..."
Pg 25:
During other phases - "A Commander may not join and Lead, or leave, a unit in already in contact with enemy." The addition of lead makes it seem like you can join and not lead but the glossary leads me to believe this is not the case.
glossary re-worded. Note that 'attached', 'join' 'lead' are all the same thing. Either a commander is with the unit or not.
Pg 26:
Moving into and out of Buildings - "however no CMT is required once Occupying to leave the building." perhaps add "except as a second move" May be unnecessary though.
Done
Pg 27:
Making complex moves beyond 6MU of enemy - I believe there's technically no entry for a 3rd complex move which can happen if you do a complex and then a second complex. Arguably the 2nd complex move is still only 1 move but requires 2 tests and the cost for a test for a 2nd move is 1CP. Not sure changing this is going to clear anything up that much though.
The CP price you pay at 6+MU is for each CMT taken.
Pg 29:
Units allowed to fire - "It must not have changed formation or retired as a reaction to an assault or firing earlier this move." I think if you say "either changed formation or retired" is would make it more clear that you can change formation and fire just not if you changed formation as a reaction to an assault.
Because firing takes place before the movement phase, the only formation change possible would have been as a reaction to an assault.
Pg 32:
Supporting fire - "Use the quality of the primary unit for all support fire." What happens if you only have support fire as in the assault phase if cavalry without artillery is being charged?
Now Clarified. Use support shooter own dice training level if no primary shooter.
Pg 34:
The effects on firing table - There's an asterix next to Driven Back to 3MU. I can't find the associated note. It appears to be 3rd bullet in the first box of bullets in the table.
Sorted.
Pg 36:
Dice Additions and Losses table - May be worth mentioning uphill is defined in the glossary. May be unnecessary and hard to fit though.
Have left this as is.
Pg 40:
Combat Resolution Table - According to the table it seems to me that only one unit retires if both units break. This is cleared up on page 41. Perhaps remove "contact" from the "then active player" bit. There shouldn't be any other broken not in contact units to mess up the sequence? Need to be sure though.
Tidied up. It is possible for both units to break.
Pg 43:
Retiring units (prev page) - Third bullet "If the unit becomes Broken, or is already Broken, then it is Destroyed." I think destroyed isn't defined anywhere. It's used in a few places but maybe add it to the glossary that you remove the models (immediately?). Should be self evident though.
'Destroyed' now 'removed'.
Meeting Obstructions in a Retire Move - "If it cannot avoid the obstruction by sliding, refer to the following table:" Avoid the obstruction or avoid all obstructions?
avoid an obstruction. extra wording added to make it clear you can slide to avoid the first, then have to burst through a second obstruction.
Pg 44:
Pursuers whose Original Target has moved out of reach - This section says within 2MU of the retiring unit's path of retirement. I'm pretty sure the assault chapter said 2MU of original position
Yes these are different. The pursuers start in contact with their prey and will stay in contact unless outdistanced. If outdistanced, they effectively might give up on the pursuit and may wheel to hit a new target.
Assaulters arrive to fund their target gone and simply pick a new target, if one is close enough.
Pg 45:
Eligibility to Pass Through - 1st bullet, 3rd sub-bullet, "Blocking wavering units break" and immediately outcome move? That may be written elsewhere but it would be consistent with the previous bullet and easier to look up.
done
Pg 46:
3rd bullet - "A broken unit led by a commnder is contacted by an enemy unit" I can't work out which bit of the casualties to commanders table to use. I assume it's the broken under 3 hits from combat but we don't roll dice so it's not technically correct.
clarified
This same section - Also, test when "A unit led by a commander takes 3 or more hits in a single Firing or Combat Phase." and "A broken unit led by a commander is contacted by an enemy unit." This means newly contacted, not currently in contact, so you don't take two tests for being broken in combat after taking 3 hits, or do you?
You take a test when you take 3 hits in combat. If you break, are pursued and contacted by the pursuers, you take a 2nd test.
Pg 49:
Spent Units - "A Spent unit requires the expenditure of a Command Point to declare an assault or an intercept move unless they are Shock Cavalry or Guard Infantry." This is different to who needs to CMT in the table on 27 "Assaulting while Spent unless you are: Shock; assaulting a flank or rear; or assaulting waverers." Do you need an extra CP if you're not shock cav or guard inf plus a test (and so another CP) unless you're shock, assaulting flank or rear or assaulting waverers"
All tidied in latest version. A CMT for all spent cavalry to assault anyone but waverers.
Pg 55:
Bridges and Fords - "If their move only gets them partially across the bridge or ford, they do not a 2nd CMT in the following turn to complete the move." Should probably be "they do not NEED a 2nd CMT".
done
Pg 60:
Superimposing terrain features - From front to back this is I believe the first spot you find that large can be more than one selection. It's explained later (Pg 64) but perhaps should be in the selecting terrain bit on 57-58.
Agreed. Reference now made.
Pg 66:
Cover - "The following terrain is considered to provide cover to bases entirely within them:" This contradicts how some only require 3 corners of each base.
Defended, Obstacle - As mentioned earlier, what about two front corners
tidied up in latest version
Pg 68:
Points of Advantage - These seem to not be mentioned in the firing rules but are mentioned here that they're used in the firing phase. Maybe a copy/paste issue from V1. Chapter names are also different, maybe.
now tidied
Pg 69:
Support Area - The firing and combat areas seem to be explaining the same thing in two different ways. Diagrams would clear things up but the text should perhaps be reexamined.
will look at this.

Again, many thanks for your efforts here.

Cheers
Brett

taxis
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Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by taxis » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:28 am

Hi guys was good to see you at Cancon, my friend and i have started using the rules you sent through and like what we see. i am sure we will start to hit questions soon and will post them here. next game 1809 Austrians V French, (any hints for the Austrians)

geoff
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Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by geoff » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:34 pm

I like the 1809 Austrian Army in Italy. Reason being you can have 2 skirmisher attachments per division. With skirmishers being reasonably cheap now I find it works fairly well.

dabigz732
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Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by dabigz732 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:36 am

So for those of us out of the loop, is there a timeline when we can expect to be able to see these rules? Publishing date or anything even rough?

richafricanus
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Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by richafricanus » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:38 pm

Oops, sorry for the slow reply on this. Been working on getting the rules and lists finalised for publication. :D

We're hoping to have them out by July, but things always seem to take longer than planned...

dabigz732
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Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by dabigz732 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:13 am

Any updates?

BrettPT
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Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by BrettPT » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:53 am

V2 is currently with typesetters, formatting the rules for printing. Hopefully they are not too far away from completing this job.
Once this has been done, all that remains will be to check the formatting, make any required tweaks and print.
Timeframes largely in the hands of 3rd parties, but hopefully we are almost there.

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