Triumph of Nations Errata

[BrettPT]

Prussian 1813 list.
In the notes it says 'If used, guards must all be in the same mixed division'
As there are no Guard cavalry in the list this could prove difficult.

I haven't got ToN to hand, but from your quote there is nothing to stop you adding a line cavalry unit or two to a division containing guards (in fact you have to - the Guards division must be mixed). You could also add other line infantry/artillery units to the Guards division

This restriction just prevents you from fielding Guard units in multiple different divisions.

Cheers
Brett

[donm]

Brett.

This restriction just prevents you from fielding Guard units in multiple different divisions.

There is only one unit of Guard infantry in the list, so that is not an option.

I haven't got ToN to hand, but from your quote there is nothing to stop you adding a line cavalry unit or two to a division containing guards (in fact you have to - the Guards division must be mixed). You could also add other line infantry/artillery units to the Guards division

That certainly wasn't the way I read it. I had it that all Guards units and only Guards units had to be in a mixed division.

The situation would have been much clearer without the note.

Think it needs clarification.

Don

[Selaurant]

Another small issue with the 1812 French infantry corps. You can get up to four skilled or competent div commanders, but only three divisional commanders overall. I take it these numbers should be reversed?

[bahdahbum]

Austrian infantry corps, army of the Danube 1809
pg 8
Hungarian Line Infantry : bases per unit is 6, but the minimum is 4 and the maximum10 ...if your unit is 6 bases mandatory the minimum is to low and the max to high . I suppose it is bases per unit 4-6

[panda2]

The maximum for Hungarian Infantry in the Austrian Army of the Danube is 12 in my book! So it isn't a problem. The 6 base units for Hungarian Infantry are consitent with the other 1809 Austrian lists and, probably more importantly, make sense in terms of the size of the battallions in Hungarian Regiments. So I would guess it is deliberate, rather than an error. Changing the minima is not without consequence. If it increased to 6 then it would mean that Hungarian Infantry would be compulsory if you imported a division from this this into another list, such as the Reserve Corps, with a mimima of 4 they are not (see p.159 ToN). The minima of 4 may therefore be deliberate as well.

Andy D

[gelin]

Prussian Army Corps Autumn 1813 - 1814

Special Instructions on pg. 91: "Each infantry and mixed division MUST have at least one cavalry attachment."

Table for Attachments pg. 94: Cavalry Attachments - "At least 1 and up 2 per infantry division." Minimum bases - "1 per infantry division." Maximum bases - "1 per infantry division." There's no mention of "mixed divisions".

I assume that the special instructions are correct and that the table should be "per infantry or mixed division".

Apart from the above in which a reply is pending (hopefully should be per infantry division) here's another problem with the Prussian army corps 1815

There are minimum 4 bases of medium artillery, 2 bases of heavy artillery and 2 bases of horse artillery.

If the instructions on forming mixed divisions in page 158 are to be followed, each mixed division must contain at least 2 infantry units, either 1 or 2 cavalry units and no more than 1 artillery unit. Moreover infantry divisions may have only 1 artillery unit.

This is translated that the Prussian army has compulsory 4 divisional commanders as each of the 4 artillery units must be in its own divisions. The list gives only 2 divisional commanders as compulsory.

Morever the minimum unit requiremets are too high.

The absolutely minimum are:
1 Compenent corps commander 30 points
4 competent division commanders 120 points
2x4 average veteran musketeers 104 points
3x4 average drilled musketeers 120 points
3x4 average conscript landwehr 84 points
2x4 6pdr field artillery 80 points
1x2 12pdr field artillery 48 points
1x4 average drilled uhlans 40 points
1x6 average conscript landwehr cavalry 36 points
1x2 horse artillery 48 points
4 skirmisher attachments (muskets) 32 points

Total 742 points! (with all commanders being competent and with minimum unit quality and weapon capabilities)

Surely to many compared to the 500 points minimum:

for example a French Imperial Guard Autumn 1813 list costs 792 points just to meet the minimum for the list

French Imperial guard have too high a minima in both 1812 & 1813. We will do something about that in the errata.
Other than those 2, minima for armies should be no more than 500pts

Practically there are no points left to make a customized list. For example i cant see how i can field 4 mixed divisions since there is a requirement that more than half the units in a mixed division should be infantry.
The posibility to have a guard division from the Prussian Guard Reserve Corps also eludes me.

Are the list minimums correct? Or the artillery requirement in page 158 should be disregarded?

PS Are the 800 points the standard game level?

[panda2]

Within the same Division 1st Corps commanded by Blucher are the Guard Cuirassers (750 men + 900 men in the Guard light cav regt) and the three line regiments of Cuirassiers (600 + men each regt), but there are none in the lists?

Nafziger doesn't have them in Blucher's corp for the major engagements in May at Lutzen and Bautzen, rather they are part of the army reserve for the Russo-Prussian force. The guard and lieb regiments were part of Blucher's corp at these engagements, however, and in the same mixed division (in game terms).

Andy D

[shadowdragon]

Saxon Army of 1809

Division Commanders

Skilled Division Commanders: Min = 1, Max =1
Competent Division Commanders: Min = 1, Max = 3
Total Division Commanders: Max =3

This does not add up as you can never have a maximum of 3 competent division commanders. So, options to fix are (1) the "Skilled" Division Commander minimum should be 0; (2) the maximum "competent" commanders should be 2; or (3) the total division commander maximum should be 4.

[donm]

Andy D,

All my notes are based on the ORBATs in the back of 'Lutzen & Bautzen' by Nafziger published by The Emperor's Press.

For the two months of March and April , what I stated is taken direct from this book.

At Lutzen (May 1813) the Guard infantry was still part of Bulcher's Corps, now in a Division commanded by von Tipplskirch.
One brigade of this division was all the Guard infantry plus the Normal infantry battalion, the other had two battalion of grenadiers a battalion of the Leib regt and the battalion of Guard Feiwilliger Jager. Interestingly no cavalry are attached to this division.

The Guard cavalry and cuirassiers were formed into two brigades to form the Prussian Reserve Cavalry under Oberst von Dolffs.

An ORBAT for the battle of Bautzen is very similar. The Guard infantry division now having another infantry battalion added and 6 squadron of hussars. The Guard cavalry and cuirassiers remanin the same.

The notes at the begining of this list in ToN, say that this list should be used until the autumn of 1813, so certainly the above organisation was in place until August.

I think it was when the Austrians joined the fight in August that the Prussian Guard was combined with the Russia Guard and Austrian Greandiers into an army reserve.

Don

[donm]

Gelin,

Apart from the above in which a reply is pending (hopefully should be per infantry division) here's another problem with the Prussian army corps 1815

Great spot, I haven't looked closely at that list yet, but is does seem the Prussians have got a raw deal.

Don

[shadowdragon]

Army of Naples 1815

According to the list one could, in theory, field both a Guard Hussars unit and a Guard Velites a Cheval unit. I thought that the Hussar regiment was formed from the Velites regiment.

http://empire.histofig.com/Mounted-Velites-Hussars.html
http://jmurat.xoom.it//jmurat/napoletani/guardia1.htm
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_dei_ ... 00-1815%29

Perhaps the Guard Velites should be the Gardes du Corps unit (formed from some survivors of the Gardes d'Honneur). It was regiment until 1814, but only a company in 1815.

[panda2]

Don,

I suspect we are looking at very similar sources. I don't have Nafziger's book, but have been using the collection of his orbats at http://cdm16040.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ ... 11/id/1277 .

I think we are in agreement that the Prussian guard cavalry and Cuirassiers were in a seperate division in reserve and not part of the front line compliment of a particular corp and were not brigaded with the guard infantry or leib regiments. I think we could probably agree that a Prussian Corps in spring 1813 should have the option to draw on this division. What is more complex (and I don't have a firm view on this myself) is whether a Russian Corps in Spring 1813 should be able to draw on this division or whether a Prussian Corps in Spring 1813 should be able to draw on a division from the Russsian reserves. I could accept arguments either way.

Andy D

[DuncA]

Anglo Netherlands Army - Belgium 1815

A couple of questions regarding the "special instructions" in this list.

Cavalry units may be combined to form up to 2 cavalry divisions. A cavalry division containing both heavy and light cavalry must have a minimum of 8 bases of each.

British cavalry must be sperate divisions from other cavalry.

1. This may sound a bit daft, but what constitutes "British cavalry"? I assume the "British Hussars" are, but two other entries are "Dragoons" and "Light Dragoons". Can these be other nationalities? Hanovarian Light Cavalry have their own entry, but were there Hanovarian Dragoons and Light Dragoons? Also, what are the KGL Dragoons and Light Dragoons counted as? And I assume that the British Royal Horse artillery can be in a non-British cavalry division.

2. What cavalry can be combined to form 2 cavalry divisions? Does it include the Dutch-Belgium Allies? If so, is it still an allied division?

Also, in the list itself, both the Heavy and Medium artillery are listed as 6pdrs.

Thanks

[donm]

Andy D,

What is more complex (and I don't have a firm view on this myself) is whether a Russian Corps in Spring 1813 should be able to draw on this division or whether a Prussian Corps in Spring 1813 should be able to draw on a division from the Russsian reserves. I could accept arguments either way.

Looking at the various maps of the two battles within Nafziger's book, it would appear that the armies are very intergrated on the battle field. There is no clear demarcation line between the two armies and so I would say yes.

What worries me about this situation is that Nafziger is an accept source and yet these lists appear to have ignore information which is so readily avaliable

Having taken part in the beta test and realised how good these rules could be, I am very disappointed with all the mistakes in the published version.

I also think the decission not to allow the beat testers to see and comment on the army lists before publication may come back to haunt them.

Don

[donm]

DuncA,

Certainly KGL hussars, KGL light dragoons and Hanoverian hussars should be allowed to be within a British cavalry Division.

They are all listed within the Cavalry Corps commanded by Lord Uxbridge for Waterloo.

The Dutch-Beligian heavy and light cavalry formed a division within this Corps.

Don

[gelin]

Austrian army of northern Italy 1813-1814

pg 106 top
Requirement: A single cavalry division may be used. It MUST contain at least 2 units of Dragoons

pg 107
Core Cavalry: Maximum 6 bases of Dragoons.

[hazelbark]

Certainly KGL hussars, KGL light dragoons and Hanoverian hussars should be allowed to be within a British cavalry Division.
They are all listed within the Cavalry Corps commanded by Lord Uxbridge for Waterloo.
The Dutch-Beligian heavy and light cavalry formed a division within this Corps.

The problem is what is a Division or Corp or Brigade or unit for puposes of translating Historical OB into list?

Corps different than division. There did appears to be a separate "Division" for the Netherlands Cavarly (Collert)
Clearly the KGL and British were intertwined not surprisingly.

1st (British) "Household" Cavalry Brigade MG Lord Somerset
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (British) 1st Life Guards [255/228 men in 2 sq.]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (British) 2nd Life Guards [235/231 men in 2 sq.]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (British) Royal Horse Guard "The Blues" [296/237 in 2 sq.]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (British) 1st Guard Dragoons [588/530 in 3 sq.]

2nd (British) "Union" Cavalry Brigade MG Sir Ponsonby
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (British) 1st Royal Dragoons [435/394 in 3 sq.]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (British) 2nd Royal Dragoons "Scots Greys" [444/391 in 3 sq.]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (British) 6th Dragoons [453/396 in 3 sq.]

3rd (British) Cavalry Brigade MG Sir Dörnberg
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (British) 23rd Light Dragoons (341 in 3 sq.)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (German) 1st KGL Light Dragoons (540 in 4 sq.)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (German) 2nd KGL Light Dragoons (520 in 4 sq.)


4th (British) Cavalry Brigade MG Sir Vandeleur
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (British) 11th Light Dragoons [442 in 3 sq.]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (British) 12th Light Dragoons [433 in 3 sq.]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (British) 16th Light Dragoons [440 in 3 sq.]

5th (British) Cavalry Brigade MG Sir Grant
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (British) 7th Hussars [362 in 3 sq.]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (British) 15th Hussars [450 in 3 sq.]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (German) 2nd KGL Hussars [599 in 4 sq.] *


6th (British) Cavalry Brigade MG Sir Vivian
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (British) 10th Hussars [452 in 3 sq.]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (British) 18th Hussars [447 in 3 sq.]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (German) 1st KGL Hussars [605 in 4 sq.]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (British) HB [6 guns, 180 men] - Cpt. Sir Gardiner

7th (British) Cavalry Brigade Col. Sir Arentschildt
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (German) 3rd KGL Hussars [712 men]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (British) 13th Light Dragoons [455 in 3 sq.] -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - this regiment was attached to 5th Cav. Brigade

(Netherland) Heavy Cavalry Brigade MG Jonkheer Tripp
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (Dutch) 1st Carabiniers [446 in 3 sq.]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (Belgian) 2nd Carabiniers [399 in 3 sq.]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (Dutch) 3rd Carabiniers [392 in 3 sq.]

(Netherland) 1st Light Cavalry Brigade MG Baron de Ghigny
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (Dutch) 4th Light Dragoons [647 in 4 sq.]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (Belgian) 8th Hussars [439 in 3 sq.]

(Netherland) 2nd Light Cavalry Brigade MG van Merlen
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (Dutch) 4th Light Dragoons [271 in 3 sq.]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (Dutch) 6th Hussars [470 in 4 sq.]

(Hannoverian) Cavalry Brigade Col. Baron Estorff
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (German, Hannoverian) Cumberland Hussars [516]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (German, Hannoverian) Bremen-Verden Hussars [589 in 4 sq.] ***
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (German, Hannoverian) Regent Hussars [596 in 4 sq.] ***

[Simpleton]

Prussian Army Corps Autumn 1813 - 1814

Special Instructions on pg. 91: "Each infantry and mixed division MUST have at least one cavalry attachment."

Table for Attachments pg. 94: Cavalry Attachments - "At least 1 and up 2 per infantry division." Minimum bases - "1 per infantry division." Maximum bases - "1 per infantry division." There's no mention of "mixed divisions".

I assume that the special instructions are correct and that the table should be "per infantry or mixed division".

Why is this confusing? A mixed Division has an entire regiment or two of Cavalry, while an infantry Division has at least one and up to 2 cavalry attachments.

[donm]

Hazelbark,

According to Scott Bowden 'Armies at Waterloo' by Empire Press

Dutch-Belgian Cavalry Division commanded by Lt Gen Baron J.A. Collaert

Heavy cavalry brigade - Major Gen A.D. Trip

1st Light Cav Brigade - Major Gen Baron de Ghigny

2nd Light Cav Brigade - Major Gen J.B. van Merlen

So I still think these should be in their own division.

Don

[hazelbark]

Dutch-Belgian Cavalry Division commanded by Lt Gen Baron J.A. Collaert
So I still think these should be in their own division.

Agreed. I wrote something similar at the top of my post except spelled Collaert differently and probably wrongly.