Suggestion for historical OBs needed

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hazelbark
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Suggestion for historical OBs needed

Post by hazelbark » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:48 am

So as I am putting together some historical OBs.

How do you think I should establish the command structure for the early period when the corps divisional structure is weak?

Probably about 1400-1800 points should i try to shove that into a corps plus 4-5 divisional commanders. Or should i create 2 corps and an army commander and therefore close to 8 divisional generals.?

THoughts?

terrys
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Re: Suggestion for historical OBs needed

Post by terrys » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:51 pm

For the early period brigades were much bigger and no 'formal' corps structure existed.
The divisions (which could consist of only 1 large brigade - of 2-4 demi-brigades) would be organised into 'wings' (right, left, centre, advance guard etc).
A 'Wing' iwould be equivalent to a corps under the rules, so you should probably organise your army into 2-3 corps, each with 2-3 large divisions.

Of course if you can get a copy of the historical organisation of the army you want to represent you should build you force based on that.

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Re: Suggestion for historical OBs needed

Post by hazelbark » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:30 pm

terrys wrote:
Of course if you can get a copy of the historical organisation of the army you want to represent you should build you force based on that.
Right I am translating a BUNCH of historical OBs into games. It is the earlier armies that are problems.

So 1800 and earlier the "Corps" is a command structure. As you said WIngs and Columns alternate as that designation too.

So if you adhere to that you get a lot more Corps as often for battles you would have fairly weak divisions underneath. I think at Marengo, Napoleon has Three Corps designated that day for a 30,000 person army. But if you skip Corps to you demote Desaix, Lannes and I think it was Victor to Divisionals? Then they had about two designated "divisions" under each present. I think Monier's was a Corps but he wasn't there, but one of his divisions was.

After 1805 the French become easier, but the Coalition forces take longer to be clear. I am fine handicapping their command structure as that is historical.

You said you gamed Austerlitz. For the allies did you make each "Column" a Corp or a division?

terrys
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Re: Suggestion for historical OBs needed

Post by terrys » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:32 pm

This is the ORBAT I have for the allies at Austrlitz.
Each 'column' was treated as a corps apart from the small 2nd and 3rd columns which I grouped together as a single corps. They operated quite closely on the battlefield so it's not unreasonable. It makes all 'corps' commands 2 or 3 divisions each.
This gives us quite small corps for the allies, but we didn't allow any veteran line infantry other than grenadiers and guards, so it works OK.
I don't have a record of the elan & training we used for each unit, but I'm sure that players can work that out for themselves from the lists. The only thing not in the lists is the austrian Landwehr battalions - which should be average or poor conscripts.
A high proportion of artillery is allocated as attachments.

>>Adv Gd (Austr) Buxhowden 2 Div
>1st Div Bases
Grenzers 8
Cossacks 4
Jaeger att 1
Art att 1
> 2nd Div
Cheveuxleger 6
Hussars & Uhlans 4
Hussars 4
Cossacks 4
Art att 1

>>1st Column (Russ) Dokhturov 2 Div
> 1st Div
Musketeers 10
Medium Art 2
Jaeger att 1
Art att 1
>2nd Div
Musketeers 16
Grenadiers 4
Heavy Art 3
Art att 2
Cav att 1

>>2nd Column (Russ) Langeron 3 Div (2nd & 3rd columns combined)
>1st Div
Musketeers 14
Jaeger att 1
Art att 1
>2nd Div
Musketeers 6
Grenadiers 6
Medium artillery 2
Art att 1
Cav att 1
3rd Column (Russ) Przebyszeski (1 Div)
>3rd Div
Jaegers 4
Musketeers 14
Medium artillery 2
Art att 2

>> 4th Column (mixed) Kollowrath 3 Div
> 1st Div (Aust)
Austrian Line 12
Med Art + hvy att 2+1
Jaeger att 1
Art att 1
>2nd Div (Austr)
Austrian Landwehr 14
Art att 1
> 3rd Div (Russ) Miloradovich (1 Div)
Musketeers 12
Grenadiers 4
Heavy Art + med att 2+1
Art att 2
Off att 1
Cav att 1

>> 5th Column (Mixed)Leichtenstein 2 Div
> 1st Div (Austr)
Austr Cuirr 10
Art att 1
> 2nd Div (Russ)
Russ Uhlans 6
Russ Huss 6
Russ Drag 6
Cossacks 4
Art att 2

>> RIGHT WING (Russ) Bagration 2 Div
> 1st Div
Jaegers 8
Musketeers 12
Medium artillery 2
Art att 2
>2nd Div
Hussars 12 (2 large)
Cuirassiers 4
Dragoons 6
Cossacks 6
Art att 2

>> Imperial Guard Constantine 2 Div
> 1st Div
Guard Infantry 16
Medium Art 2 + 1
Jaeger att 1
Art att 2
> 2nd Div
Guard Cuirassier 12 (large)
Guard Hussars 6
Guard Cossacks 4
Art att 1

bahdahbum
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Re: Suggestion for historical OBs needed

Post by bahdahbum » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:44 pm

>> 5th Column (Mixed)Leichtenstein 2 Div
> 1st Div (Austr)
Austr Cuirr 10
Art att 1
> 2nd Div (Russ)
Russ Uhlans 6
Russ Huss 6
Russ Drag 6
Cossacks 4
Art att 2
it reminds me : do not forget to add those Uhlans to the russian available units in 1805-1807 as they were there during both campaings :D

And what about the guard cossacks , any decision ? lancers and regular cavalry or regular cavalry ?
+ the russian guard that was present at Frieland ..so should be made available to the russian in 1807 :D :D :D

Ok I'll leave

KendallB
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Re: Suggestion for historical OBs needed

Post by KendallB » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:11 am

bahdahbum wrote:
it reminds me : do not forget to add those Uhlans to the russian available units in 1805-1807 as they were there during both campaings :D

And what about the guard cossacks , any decision ? lancers and regular cavalry or regular cavalry ?
+ the russian guard that was present at Frieland ..so should be made available to the russian in 1807 :D :D :D

Ok I'll leave
Hear hear!!

bahdahbum
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Re: Suggestion for historical OBs needed

Post by bahdahbum » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:58 am

This is the ORBAT I have for the allies at Austrlitz.
the problem is not the ORBAT but the table . I am trying to reduce slightly the orbat's in Napoleon's battles scenarios and use a 270 x 150 cm table .. ( 9 X 5 ) . So it remains manageable .

terrys
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Re: Suggestion for historical OBs needed

Post by terrys » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:04 pm

the problem is not the ORBAT but the table . I am trying to reduce slightly the orbat's in Napoleon's battles scenarios and use a 270 x 150 cm table .. ( 9 X 5 ) . So it remains manageable .
We used a 12x6 table for Austerlitz. You need to allow for a 5 mile battle frontage - but possibly up to 6. Ground scale is about 2ft per mile.

bahdahbum
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Re: Suggestion for historical OBs needed

Post by bahdahbum » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:16 pm

That's why I try to reduce a little ....12 x 6 is very long and a bit too large ...5 is large enough ..

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