FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

General discussion forum for anything related to Field of Glory Napoleonics.

Moderators: hammy, Blathergut, terrys, Slitherine Core

Daemionhunter
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:41 am

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by Daemionhunter » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:52 am

I not that advantages of large units quoted as being legion although I don't see any demons to cast out. What are their advantages in the context of the notes I presented above?

They do allow concentration of force as any higher quality unit does e.g. Shock Cavalry and Guard etc. However, like any quality force with a small footprint they also suffer disadvantages. I think the relative advantages of small and large units will balance out even more with version 2 promoting more variety to the shape of battle reinforced by the faster manoeuvre the proposed rules generate.

BrettPT
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1262
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by BrettPT » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:00 pm

To my mind the huge advantage that large infantry units have is the ability to keep their cohesion at medium range.
Some stats to back this.

The chances of a small/large unit dropping a cohesion level to incoming fire are:

Facing 2 dice: 11%/0%
Facing 3 dice: 24%/4%
Facing 4 dice : 41%/11%
Facing 5 dice: 51%/21%
Facing 6 dice: 65%/32%

If you are disordered at medium range and your opponent is not, your options become restricted.

I appreciate there are many ways to skin a cat, and numbers of units may give you grand tactical options. The ability of some players to play an excellent grand tactical game would change the perception of what's important for them, with numbers of units perhaps becoming valued more highly then the survivability of individual units.

However I believe the single reason why large infantry units are perceived to be advantaged by most players is their ability to ignore a hit at medium range.
Last edited by BrettPT on Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Daemionhunter
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:41 am

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by Daemionhunter » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:47 pm

Hi Brett.

You are absolutely correct in your assessment of the superiority of large units versus small in their ability to absorb medium range fire.

I haven't done the maths but I think you'll find that two small units have a similar advantage over one large unit that one large unit has over a single small unit.

In both cases the points reflect the differences.

A large unit is undeniably better than a small unit. Any general would prefer more men of the same merit rather than less. However, the large unit costs 50 per cent more points. It should be better.

Two small units are better than one large unit and cost 33 per cent more (average drilled).

This issue is different from the other point’s issues that have been debated. The most obvious was light infantry. These provided 5 shots for 48 points with enhanced manoeuvrability over their line cousins who were 48 points for 4 shots, with a skirmish attachment. They were better but did not cost more. That needed to be fixed.

The large unit versus small unit balance does not meet the same test for a flaw in points setting hence the ACV penalty has no justification.

As you note the superiority is “perceived”. The maths of points, firepower and resilience are balanced for large versus small units.

marty
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:26 am
Location: Sydney

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by marty » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:49 am

The balance is apparent rather than actual. This is because on the game table it is often possible to concentrate fire on one of the two small units and inflict a result on it whereas no matter how your opponent maneuvers a large unit retains its extra resilience. Only a poor opponent, or one constrained by circumstances, is going to oblige you by always splitting his fire between the two small units in your example.

This is something that has become very clear to me playing 1805 and 1809 Austrians. The biggest differences between the lists is small unit (1805) Vs Large unit (1809). Playing the 1805 is a constant struggle of minor maneuver and counter-maneuver as I try to split my opponents fire while he tries to concentrate it. It is a much more difficult army to use (even though the actual number of infantry bases is pretty much the same).

Martin

marty
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:26 am
Location: Sydney

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by marty » Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:14 am

Had a test game last night. 1800 in Germany Austria Vs France.

The deployment system played fine. Didn't take long and we ended up with prepared attack Vs flexible defense. Looks like a system that will create plenty of variety. I have my doubts that all options are created equal but should definitely be more interesting than the current attack/defense.

Some things I tested out through my list

1) I ran Grenzer as Average Irregular. I was concerned that at 6 points a base they may be too cheap (after all that's about 1/2 the price of other LI) My two units spent the game lurking in a wood firing ineffectually at some nearby French. I'm not sure but their inability to survive in the open and their relatively poor shooting may mean 6 points is OK.

2) I ran 3 regiments of Superior, drilled grenadiers. They performed quite well. I would definitely consider superior infantry at the new points cost. I feel they are at the right price, cheaper than veterans but still a couple of points more than average fellas.

Martin

richafricanus
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:38 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by richafricanus » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:37 pm

The deployment system played fine. Didn't take long and we ended up with prepared attack Vs flexible defense. Looks like a system that will create plenty of variety. I have my doubts that all options are created equal but should definitely be more interesting than the current attack/defense.
I'm glad you enjoyed the new scenarios Marty. I also wonder if they're all created equal, but we're going to use them at the tournaments in Auckland in June and Melbourne in July and keep track of which ones are being used and results to give us a feel for this, so let's see.
I ran Grenzer as Average Irregular. I was concerned that at 6 points a base they may be too cheap (after all that's about 1/2 the price of other LI) My two units spent the game lurking in a wood firing ineffectually at some nearby French. I'm not sure but their inability to survive in the open and their relatively poor shooting may mean 6 points is OK.
Marty, remember we have decided to make Grenz Regular lights now, either avg drilled or poor conscript.
I ran 3 regiments of Superior, drilled grenadiers. They performed quite well. I would definitely consider superior infantry at the new points cost. I feel they are at the right price, cheaper than veterans but still a couple of points more than average fellas.
Good to hear as that's the intent. More superiors means more charges means more stuff happens.

marty
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:26 am
Location: Sydney

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by marty » Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:00 pm

I also wonder if they're all created equal
I personally don't think prepared defense will see the table much. Deploying first, moving second and 2 turns of movement restrictions are massive cons the pros don't even come close to making up for.
Marty, remember we have decided to make Grenz Regular lights now, either avg drilled or poor conscript
I know but when I saw irregs dropped to 6 points I wanted to give them a go. Do you mean superior conscript? Poor conscript would be more points effective but is not what I thought you were going with?
More superiors means more charges means more stuff happens
They certainly made stuff happen in our game. They charged a solid block of French infantry in the center and as a result of some very poor french shooting and combat rolling went through them like a hot knife through butter!

Martin

richafricanus
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:38 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by richafricanus » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:42 am

Do you mean superior conscript? Poor conscript would be more points effective but is not what I thought you were going with?
Sorry, yes, I meant to say Superior Conscript

richafricanus
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:38 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by richafricanus » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:44 am

I personally don't think prepared defense will see the table much. Deploying first, moving second and 2 turns of movement restrictions are massive cons the pros don't even come close to making up for.
Actually Richard S has chosen this for his defence prone Westphalians & Swedes and I know Brett has said a couple of the good NZ players think this suits their armies (and personalities) and use it often.

BrettPT
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1262
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by BrettPT » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:03 am

I watched Kit take a prepared defence and beat Philips Frontal assault at the club today.

The main advantage of position defence is the free large Hill. It's the only strategy that gives you a free Hill.

Downsides are, as you say, having to deploy first. But this is mitigated in part by hidden deployment.

The 2 turn movement restrictions don't matter so much if you intend to defend and not advance in any case.

Doesn't suit my preferred play style, but it is has popular choice over here.

marty
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Sergeant Major - SdKfz 234/2 8Rad
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:26 am
Location: Sydney

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by marty » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:28 am

If V1 taught me anything (and the vast majority of my games were played as defender) it was that hills help very little. I suppose they matter a little bit more now you can hide part of your army on them but "deploy your army first except for what you can hide on a hill" is still worse than just deploying first division and alternating.

I do think though that the way you block options with dice means the system has a certain amount of enforced variability.

Martin

pugsville
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:42 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by pugsville » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:56 pm

Further Queries

Rallies
DO Exceptional commander rereoll 1 rally test cant find that in the rules.,or is that no longer a thing. )Never having used an exceptional before)

Deployment

blocking deployment options, you roll three dice if you have exceptional and your roll three 1's you only get to p=block one deployment option. Correct.

Prepared attack bombardment

when artillery units are moved up 6MU if no targets are in range, can they move forward of the halfway line? (which may be over brave of them as supports could be slow getting there)

BrettPT
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1262
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by BrettPT » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:43 pm

DO Exceptional commander rereoll 1 rally test
Not in v2. The points for L3 DCs has dropped to 50 though.
blocking deployment options, you roll three dice if you have exceptional and your roll three 1's you only get to p=block one deployment option.
Correct. Although note that blocking particular options is optional. If, in your example above, you actually hoped your opponent would choose prepared defence, you would elect not to block anything.
Prepared attack bombardment
when artillery units are moved up 6MU if no targets are in range, can they move forward of the halfway line?
Yes.

pugsville
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:42 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by pugsville » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:17 am

Terrain Placement, superimposing one feature on another. Not clear,.

Can a feature be placed on another feature already placed (some one places a hill and later a brush is added during another terrain placement action)

OR

must both features be placed at the same time you place a hill with brush at the same time.

richafricanus
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:38 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by richafricanus » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:23 pm

Can a feature be placed on another feature already placed (some one places a hill and later a brush is added during another terrain placement action)

OR

must both features be placed at the same time you place a hill with brush at the same time.
Thanks for the pick up. We'll clarify it in the wording. In my head, I interpret at as both are possible. You can put your wood on my hill, or you can put down a wooded hill as 2 selections.

pugsville
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:42 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by pugsville » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:47 am

make sure it's clear about what can be done, does the super imposed piece need to be smaller so it fits entirely on the feature being superimposed on?

richafricanus
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:38 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by richafricanus » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:57 am

I have just emailed out a copy of the 2nd draft of v2 to all the play-testers on my mailing list. Let me know if I've left you off and I'll send it to you.

Bar853
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:55 am

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by Bar853 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:10 am

Just spotted a correction. Page70, first table, last row - "5000 or more - 2 large unit or 2 small units" . I think it should read "2 large units or 3 small units."

KendallB
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:01 pm
Location: North Shore, New Zealand

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by KendallB » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:27 am

Also there's a bit of possessive apostrophe abuse in the QRS with "4's", "5's" and "6's" instead of 4s, 5s, 6s.

richafricanus
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:38 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: FOG N 2nd Edition - it's back!

Post by richafricanus » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:23 pm

Thanks for the pick ups. Will fix them. I'm pleased to see we're now getting down to the level of apostrophe abuse and typos, and not critical rule gaps (except for those cursed redoubts...)

Post Reply

Return to “Field of Glory : Napoleonic Era 1792-1815 : General Discussion”