FOG N v2 Proof reading and testing

[richafricanus]

We are sending out a pdf of the full re-written version today for play-testers to proof-read and play-test. Please post any comments on this thread.

[pugsville]

Queries

Page 9 = infantry division mention 3 units , but should 3 units 1 infantry and 2 artillery be considered a valid division?
page 11 - Mixed divisions up to 4 cavalry units? seems unusual to have that many, Russian advanced guards maybe form the Russian perspective
page 12- Command points query, commands points reset in the recovery phase for the activate player, so if you use a command points during the opposing players turn (intercept charges) are you down those command pionts during you turn?
page 13 Corps commanders and movement do pursuit moves require another CP expenditure for Corps commander to move? (assuming already expending one for the assault) - YES page 24
page 17 - Irregular light cavalry can no longer intercept non-irregular cavalry even from flank or rear?
page 18 - Cavalry units with artillery attachments do not add support fire?
page 18 - units defending buildings get full dice allocation against all enemy units , so artillery attachment counts against all attackers?
page 21 - change of facing,. says simple or more than 2mu from enemy and not wavering? o you mean simple for artillery as well or complex for artillery?
page 23 - brigade groups containing or entire of artillery units? (IIRC only one allowed previous version)
page 24 - movement commanders can divines commanders move twice by expending a CP? (seems strange if they can move further with a unit than not)
page 28 - squares only shoot straight out so no bring at enemy hiding out form the corners?
page 28 can squares allocate dice to different faces when firing ?(as long as the total dice is the same)
Page 29 - dice availability no mention of cavalry units with artillery attachment? do they get to fire or is that changed.
page 30 - Artillery attachments count full in difficult/rough terrain?
page 31 - does six have no effect of firing in and out of buildings? seems strange that according to table a small artillery unit with an artillery attachment gets 5 dice but a large artillery unit 4?
page 33 - table thats gives cavalry moving to contact with enemy cavalry ignore hits contradicts page 18 which says only cavalry that were countercharged,
"A Cavalry unit that has been countercharged will not be driven back or made to retire by any
Supporting Defensive fire but will remain in contact and fight with any cohesion drops caused
by defensive fire - even if now Broken."

page 36 - artillery can receive flank/rear support from infantry?


page 38 - the entry in the table missing word pursuit. all other entires say "follow pursuit table" one only "follow table"

Non-active player Retires units in contact andWavering Active player Steady or Disordered units follow table

page 38/39 when both its break does the active player no longer waver instead of breaking?

page 51 - LOC, really think LOC should be terrain, units can move into it, removable models on a base, or just base changed with base with models then there are absolutely no special cases. otherwise its fighting across LOC have a whole host of side affects however you work it. just my opinion.



list and troops

Whats happening with Frei corps poor/drilled skirmishing light infantry ? should these be reclassified as irregular?

[BrettPT]

Firstly, great list. Thanks for taking the time to do this Pugs.

Page 9 = infantry division mention 3 units , but should 3 units 1 infantry and 2 artillery be considered a valid division?

This is intentional. It should help make list building easier and essentually would represent a collection of corps or reserve assets.

page 11 - Mixed divisions up to 4 cavalry units? seems unusual to have that many, Russian advanced guards maybe form the Russian perspective

Hadn't picked this up. Something to look at.

page 12- Command points query, commands points reset in the recovery phase for the activate player, so if you use a command points during the opposing players turn (intercept charges) are you down those command points during you turn?

Yes.

page 13 Corps commanders and movement do pursuit moves require another CP expenditure for Corps commander to move? (assuming already expending one for the assault) - YES page 24

Thanks for picking this up. p24 contradicts p13. We'll need to pick one or the other. p24 seems the more simple way to go.

page 17 - Irregular light cavalry can no longer intercept non-irregular cavalry even from flank or rear?

Currently, Yes. Although we are still examining the role of Cossacks so there could be some changes to irreg LC.

page 18 - Cavalry units with artillery attachments do not add support fire?

Nice pickup. Probably they should

page 18 - units defending buildings get full dice allocation against all enemy units , so artillery attachment counts against all attackers?

No, and hopefully the table on p21 makes this clear. we;ll need to clarify this on p18.

page 21 - change of facing,. says simple or more than 2mu from enemy and not wavering? o you mean simple for artillery as well or complex for artillery?

Fair point. Rule should perhaps say simple for infantry or cavalry, otherwise complex. Have a view on this Richard?

page 23 - brigade groups containing or entire of artillery units? (IIRC only one allowed previous version)

I don't mind this. v1 could (generally) only have 1 artillery unit per division. In v2 a division might have 2 units.

page 24 - movement commanders can divines commanders move twice by expending a CP? (seems strange if they can move further with a unit than not)

This has always been a tricky one, as commanders can't really take a cmt to 2nd move. We decided to stay with the v1 rule (can only move once by themselves) rather than create a new rule allowing them to move twice. They can travel up to 18MU by themselves (10MU, plus 2 lots of 4MU), felt this is probably enough.

page 28 - squares only shoot straight out so no bring at enemy hiding out form the corners?

Yup. Same as v1. It was standard cavalry operating procedure to attack squares at the corners to minimize fire. So we have a sort-of justification for this. And it saves having to create a new arc rule for squares.

page 28 can squares allocate dice to different faces when firing ?(as long as the total dice is the same)

Yes, same as v1. They get 3 (small unit) dice to split between all targets.

Page 29 - dice availability no mention of cavalry units with artillery attachment? do they get to fire or is that changed.

Oops my bad (sorry Richard, I think I was supposed to add this line)

page 30 - Artillery attachments count full in difficult/rough terrain?

Medium range yes, Close range they will be part of the total dice that are reduced for the terrain.

page 31 - does six have no effect of firing in and out of buildings? seems strange that according to table a small artillery unit with an artillery attachment gets 5 dice but a large artillery unit 4?

Good point, more thought needed.

page 33 - table thats gives cavalry moving to contact with enemy cavalry ignore hits contradicts page 18 which says only cavalry that were countercharged,
"A Cavalry unit that has been countercharged will not be driven back or made to retire by any
Supporting Defensive fire but will remain in contact and fight with any cohesion drops caused
by defensive fire - even if now Broken."

Will need to tidy this up as well. I think it is only being counter-charged that should stick. Table will be changed to match.

page 36 - artillery can receive flank/rear support from infantry?

At the moment, yes, to give that infantry in an otherwise artillery division something to do. But this could be simplified to only counting support by/for infantry and cavalry.

[richafricanus]

Wow Pug, you must have been up all night! Great list. And no "puglish" either

page 21 - change of facing,. says simple or more than 2mu from enemy and not wavering? o you mean simple for artillery as well or complex for artillery?

To change facing for guns would need a prolong type move so should be complex. We'll clear that up.

[richafricanus]

page 13 Corps commanders and movement do pursuit moves require another CP expenditure for Corps commander to move? (assuming already expending one for the assault) - YES page 24

The intention is as per p.24 - if the Corps commander keeps a PIP he can move with the unit throughout. This doesn't take away the need for extra PIPs for CMTs. The single PIP just allows the Corps commander to move in all phases of a turn. This was a bit grey in v1

page 17 - Irregular light cavalry can no longer intercept non-irregular cavalry even from flank or rear?

I think they should be able to intercept something they can usually charge without a CMT, so my view would be to change the wording to reflect this.

page 18 - Cavalry units with artillery attachments do not add support fire?

Yes they should, but I would say only 1 dice.

page 31 - does size have no effect of firing in and out of buildings? seems strange that according to table a small artillery unit with an artillery attachment gets 5 dice but a large artillery unit 4?

Yes, that is a problem. Since units cannot be ejected from buildings by fire any longer, maybe we just drop the benefits of attachments all together? Brett and I will discuss, but keen to hear any views.
Also, I see there is an error on the table for Reformed Inf at medium range. It reads 4(5) dice, but should be 3(4)

page 36 - artillery can receive flank/rear support from infantry?

The intention was that infantry only support infantry and cavalry only support cavalry and artillery etc give and receive no support.

[marty]

p28 Arc of fire: When does a large artillery unit fire as a small one? Now that it has a fire arc 2 bases out the side it can't be reduced to a small unit when a target is in front of one of its bases.

Martin

[BrettPT]

p28 Arc of fire: When does a large artillery unit fire as a small one? Now that it has a fire arc 2 bases out the side it can't be reduced to a small unit when a target is in front of one of its bases.

Nice question.
The 2 base arc only applies at long range and we have been playing that large or small artillery units at long range can simply point to a target and throw all their dice at it. Seems to have been working ok and gives artillery a degree of long range effectiveness that was missing in v1. So I think that we can ignore the 'shoot as a small unit' for long range.

At medium range we'll need to look at this and come up with a fix. Maybe easiest to simply get rid of the large unit shoots as a small rule altogether? Any views on this?

[marty]

I wouldn't get rid of the rule for large infantry units because it would make them significantly better. Maybe just for artillery.

Another rule (not a new one, same as in V1) which seems oddly inconsistent is that large units only reduce shooting hits by one when not wavering (p32) but always reduce close combat hits (p38). Seems an odd complication

Martin

[richafricanus]

The 2 base arc only applies at long range and we have been playing that large or small artillery units at long range can simply point to a target and throw all their dice at it. Seems to have been working ok and gives artillery a degree of long range effectiveness that was missing in v1. So I think that we can ignore the 'shoot as a small unit' for long range

Agreed.

At medium range we'll need to look at this and come up with a fix. Maybe easiest to simply get rid of the large unit shoots as a small rule altogether? Any views on this?

I think at medium range it will look strange for a large artillery unit to fire as large at something that is only in arc as a one base overlap off to one flank. I think it would make more sense for it to count as a small unit in this case.