Comments on FOGR from a first-timer

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martinvantol
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Comments on FOGR from a first-timer

Post by martinvantol » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:30 am

We (Tim Porter and I) have just played our first game: 1644 ECW Royalist vs Parliamentarians (Eastern Assoc). So this first comment is quite a long one.

(1) Positives
It’s already a more playable game than DBR. You’ll end up with something that’s distinct from FOG-AM, and I’ve got some hope this is going to be better. Armies with LH-bow in FOG-AM are too good IMO. I don’t think we’re going to get that problem in this period, as so many troop types shoot back.
The division rule spreads armies across the table quite well (another reason why LH armies are going to be less effective), and has a chance of creating distinct unit blocks rather than big battle lines.
Two 12-unit armies make for quite a decent size and scale of game.
The core interactions are about right:
(a) Shot seem to have about the right degree of deadliness. (Not deducting two from death rolls on shooting is probably good).
(b) Pikes play the correct role. A formation with more pike will get shot up, but doesn't have a disadvantage in melee vs shot.
(c) Stuff happens fairly quickly in cavalry battles (because of having two dice per base).
(d) Horse have a chance of breaking pike and shot formations (although we didn’t try).
The key interactions to fine-tune are between different types of foot against each other and different types of mounted against each other.
The army lists are not straight translations of the DBR lists. That’s very good.

(2) Questions / observations
(a) We have a feeling that Royalist shock cavalry should “win big” or “lose big”. Against impact horse they’re equal in the impact phase, but then at a disadvantage in the melee phase (because of poorer armour). Maybe they should have some small advantage in impact (but still with the possibility of losing). A small disadvantage in melee phase would then be about right.
(b) Dragoons shoot too well. One die per base makes them equal to shot.
(c) Firelock muskets seem to be different only by being graded superior. What’s going to happen later in the period, when you get firelocks in all armies? It also means firelock troops will always have great morale too.
(d) The shooting POA table is a little confusing. Would it perhaps be better to put the weapon type in the left-hand column, and then its target types in the right? With the introduction of firearms shooting effectiveness becomes more dependent on the weapon than on the target class.

(3) Suggestions
Our discussion brought up a suggestion on generals …
Make a distinction between “fighting” generals (those keen to get stuck in, like Gustavus Adolphus) and “strategy/tactics” generals, who were good on organisation. Fighting generals would give the plus in melee, the other would give a plus for complex moves. As well as being justified historically, it would add a nice point of contrast with FOG-AM.
In order then to keep complexity manageable, you could reduce the current three grades of generals (great, field and troop) down to two (“good” and “average”).
This would give something like 3-4 general categories: “good fighting”, “good manoeuvring”, average (which might be subdivided into “average fighting” and “average manoeuvring”).

(4) Stuff we’re curious to look into
These are not conclusions, but rather experiments we’re keen to run in order to test our own thoughts …
We want to see how other types of horse interact.
In particular we’re curious to fully armoured cuirassiers in action: will the armour and superiority make up for the lack of impact status?
Is there a point to carbine armed horse at all?
How will Swedish shot be? One early doubt is that they can’t shoot well … this probably encourages them to get stuck in, but at the cost of making them too brittle, and being unable ever to defend.
Mid-game we found out about the possibility of withdrawing from combat. Keen to see how this works.
So our next game will be Swedes vs Imperialists. Then Poles vs a pike/shot army.

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Post by MARVIN_THE_ARVN » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:22 am

Thanks for the observations!!

Im a modern gamer at heart but ive always had a dark little interest in ECW or AWI, its a shame AWI wont be included in the rules timeframe :cry:
"I'll gladly trade you some ARVN rifles, never been fired and only dropped once"

martinvantol
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Post by martinvantol » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:43 pm

As far as I understand the period of these rules ends around 1700, i.e. when the bayonet becomes universal. Nearly 80 years before AWI.
Depending on the scope of the FOGN rules, it might come into that.

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Post by MARVIN_THE_ARVN » Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:28 pm

I will ask, thanks!!!
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KiwiWarlord
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Generals

Post by KiwiWarlord » Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:26 am

Do like those suggestions re different types of Generals but I would suggest still retaining the 'great' as there were some historically.

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army size

Post by KiwiWarlord » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:24 am

You mentioned 12 BGs, were there more bases than your 400 pt DBR armies ?
How many bases per battle group ?
ie did you use more than the 24 shot bases allowed in DBR ?
How are Dragoons based ?
I'm trying to get my DBR armies sorted for Fogger but have no idea on these matters re BG size.
I'm still expanding my ancient armies

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Post by nigelemsen » Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:10 am

Having just taken part in alasidairs "last man standing" one day event I found the rules very play able and enjoyable. Troop types seem to respond/manover as I would expect. Althought bringing the ausburg war into the rules seems imo to be stretching the period. How ever a theme compition would cover that off. I personally like generals suggestion above. Also the concept of divisions. Breaks away from the chess/lines of dbm. Something I never really enjoyed in those rules.

Other suggestions elite royalist cav and more polish hussars. Valid reference/citation "any hollywood film" :)
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Post by rbodleyscott » Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:28 pm

nigelemsen wrote:Having just taken part in alasidairs "last man standing" one day event I found the rules very play able and enjoyable. Troop types seem to respond/manover as I would expect. Althought bringing the ausburg war into the rules seems imo to be stretching the period.
Some people wanted the War of the Spanish Succession to be included, but one has to draw the line somewhere, and the position of that line is always going to be somewhat arbitrary. We went with the final abandonment of pikes in most armies. WotLoA armies still have pikes, and in practice have not proved overpowering in the beta tournaments we have run.

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Post by nigelemsen » Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:24 pm

Do we have an official publish time scale? Until the official list for ecw montrose is released I take it "superioir" for post 1644 upgrades would cover off the irish brigade?
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Post by timmy1 » Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:22 pm

Amazon has a September delivery date for the UK and other places. During the Beta ,ECW was always a focus so I would not be surprised if the ECW armies were in a companion not too far behind that date. I am waiting to base my Covententors (sp?) as soon as the lists appear.

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Post by rbodleyscott » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:46 pm

The first army list compannion, which should come out at the same time as the rules, is the one covering the ECW and 30YW, and, of course, includes Montrose Royalists.
Until the official list for ecw montrose is released I take it "superioir" for post 1644 upgrades would cover off the irish brigade?
The eventual decision was to make the Irish Brigade Average, but give the musketeers Swordsmen capability. (Which, of course, most musketeers don't have). You can have 12-24 Irish brigade bases (in 6 base BGs with 2 pike and 4 shot) in 1644.

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Post by nigelemsen » Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:29 am

Thankyou richard. I can start on fig ordering/paintibg.

Once fog-r is fully delivered. Any plans to do a jacobite/malberuian/awi set? I really enjoy the "unit" concept. It goes back to the good days of wrg without the paperwork of casulty recording/orders
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Post by rbodleyscott » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:06 am

nigelemsen wrote:Once fog-r is fully delivered. Any plans to do a jacobite/malberuian/awi set? I really enjoy the "unit" concept. It goes back to the good days of wrg without the paperwork of casulty recording/orders
Not as yet, but it could happen.

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Post by erricolaw » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:08 pm

We hope in a time limit including WSS :D

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Post by timmy1 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:14 pm

Erricolaw

When Nigel uses the term 'malberuian' he means WSS (for some reason English people have a very limited vision of this war). That said, the WSS lasted about 14 years, which might also be how long FoG:Lace Wars or FoG:Enlightenment Wars takes to see the light of day...

(Hope not as my GNW Swedes are feeling very left out by FoG:R.)

Regards
Tim

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Post by nigelemsen » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:51 pm

So there are more important events that bunkers hill, quebec, ramiles and blenhiem :) well I do live 5miles from woodstock (that's in oxfordshire before the mention of undrilled hippies on ++ at first contact with a steady police line) :)
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Post by marshalney2000 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:27 pm

Don't forget you do have a Jacobite rebellion in the time frame i.e. the 1689.
John

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Post by pylum2 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:22 pm

nigelemsen wrote:So there are more important events that bunkers hill, quebec, ramiles and blenhiem :) well I do live 5miles from woodstock (that's in oxfordshire before the mention of undrilled hippies on ++ at first contact with a steady police line) :)
I very much doubt that undrilled hippies would even make it out of the camp.

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