pike-shot footprint at varying sizes

General discussion forum for anything related to Field of Glory Renaissance Wars.

Moderators: hammy, Slitherine Core, FOGR Design

Post Reply
Grandviceroy2018
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 5:57 pm

pike-shot footprint at varying sizes

Post by Grandviceroy2018 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 12:38 pm

the rule book nicely displays the foot print of the big battalions of a dozen bases...

...but none of the pike/shot units or tercios in the army list book are that large...most seem to be 6 to 9 bases...

where are these big tercios to be found? what army lists?


also, the bases of shot in the rear wings of the formations -- how do they ever come into play unless the unit is hit in flank?

also, the examples shown on page 31 have gaps where bases died -- shouldn't the rear bases at least fill in for the dead? and can't the losses be taken from the back?

rbodleyscott
Field of Glory 2
Field of Glory 2
Posts: 22687
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Re: pike-shot footprint at varying sizes

Post by rbodleyscott » Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:10 pm

grandviceroy wrote:the rule book nicely displays the foot print of the big battalions of a dozen bases...

...but none of the pike/shot units or tercios in the army list book are that large...most seem to be 6 to 9 bases...

where are these big tercios to be found? what army lists?
In the earlier period lists - notably in Book 2 Trade and Treachery
also, the bases of shot in the rear wings of the formations -- how do they ever come into play unless the unit is hit in flank?
They can also shoot to the flank/rear.

The fact they they mostly cannot do anything is the postulated reason for the change to shallower formations.
also, the examples shown on page 31 have gaps where bases died -- shouldn't the rear bases at least fill in for the dead? and can't the losses be taken from the back?
Early Tercios maintain their footprint even if it leave gaps.

Yes, losses can be replaced from the back, but if any of the 4 horn positions are left empty, the tercio immediately loses the benefits of an early tercio and becomes a later tercio.

LambertSimnel
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:33 pm
Location: Leamington, Warks, UK

Re: pike-shot footprint at varying sizes

Post by LambertSimnel » Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:47 pm

grandviceroy wrote:the rule book nicely displays the foot print of the big battalions of a dozen bases...

...but none of the pike/shot units or tercios in the army list book are that large...most seem to be 6 to 9 bases...

where are these big tercios to be found? what army lists?


also, the bases of shot in the rear wings of the formations -- how do they ever come into play unless the unit is hit in flank?

also, the examples shown on page 31 have gaps where bases died -- shouldn't the rear bases at least fill in for the dead? and can't the losses be taken from the back?
Tilly's Early Thirty Years' War German Catholic army can have it's foot in 12 base Early Tercios

david53
Major-General - Jagdtiger
Major-General - Jagdtiger
Posts: 2859
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:01 pm
Location: Manchester

Re: pike-shot footprint at varying sizes

Post by david53 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:24 pm

LambertSimnel wrote:
grandviceroy wrote:the rule book nicely displays the foot print of the big battalions of a dozen bases...

...but none of the pike/shot units or tercios in the army list book are that large...most seem to be 6 to 9 bases...

where are these big tercios to be found? what army lists?


also, the bases of shot in the rear wings of the formations -- how do they ever come into play unless the unit is hit in flank?

also, the examples shown on page 31 have gaps where bases died -- shouldn't the rear bases at least fill in for the dead? and can't the losses be taken from the back?
Tilly's Early Thirty Years' War German Catholic army can have it's foot in 12 base Early Tercios

And get shot at on 4s by artillery

Scrumpy
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:27 pm
Location: NoVa

Post by Scrumpy » Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:39 pm

What about Colunellas ?

rbodleyscott
Field of Glory 2
Field of Glory 2
Posts: 22687
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Post by rbodleyscott » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:15 pm

Scrumpy wrote:What about Colunellas ?
What about them?

Scrumpy
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:27 pm
Location: NoVa

Post by Scrumpy » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:22 pm

I wondered why the Spanish adopted the Tercio instead of it.

ethan
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1284
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:40 pm

Re: pike-shot footprint at varying sizes

Post by ethan » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:39 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
grandviceroy wrote:the rule book nicely displays the foot print of the big battalions of a dozen bases...

...but none of the pike/shot units or tercios in the army list book are that large...most seem to be 6 to 9 bases...

where are these big tercios to be found? what army lists?
In the earlier period lists - notably in Book 2 Trade and Treachery
Early 30YW Catholics in Germany also get early tercios.

Skullzgrinda
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:32 pm
Location: Dixie

Post by Skullzgrinda » Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:27 pm

Would Huguenot foot be in large units like the tercios, or the smaller battalion line looking types? Dutch, I guess. I really am not that familiar with this period.

DanielS
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:05 am

Re: pike-shot footprint at varying sizes

Post by DanielS » Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:45 pm

LambertSimnel wrote: Tilly's Early Thirty Years' War German Catholic army can have it's foot in 12 base Early Tercios
:shock: I find that both surprising and disapointing as modern research on the subject points in a rather diffrent direction and there is of course the fact that the Germans didn't use 'Tercios' at all (indeed not even the Spanish used a tactical formation called a "tercio") but rather fought in regiments & battalions.

DanielS
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:05 am

Re: pike-shot footprint at varying sizes

Post by DanielS » Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:57 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
also, the bases of shot in the rear wings of the formations -- how do they ever come into play unless the unit is hit in flank?
They can also shoot to the flank/rear.

The fact they they mostly cannot do anything is the postulated reason for the change to shallower formations.
also, the examples shown on page 31 have gaps where bases died -- shouldn't the rear bases at least fill in for the dead? and can't the losses be taken from the back?
Early Tercios maintain their footprint even if it leave gaps.

Yes, losses can be replaced from the back, but if any of the 4 horn positions are left empty, the tercio immediately loses the benefits of an early tercio and becomes a later tercio.
But the 'Mangas' were not in any way tied down into static positions at each corner, they could and would move to the position where they would have the most effect. For example prints of Nieuport 1600 show all 4 'Mangas' advancing in front of the Escaudron of pikes. At Nördlingen not only the Mangas of the Tercio's defending the Albuch move independtly on the hillside to employ their firepower to the best effect but a large number of Mangas waiting below the hill was detached from their Escaudron's and sent to join the fight on top of the hill.

The Spanish were well aware of the advantages of shallower formations, after all they employed 5 or more ways to form up the Escaudron itself, several which were wide, a key part of the Spanish system was the flexibility that arose from not being tied down to only one file depth. The Mangas which had most of the shot were formed up much thinner as already in the 1560's if not earlier the Spanish knew that to get the best effect from firearms you had to use shallow formations.

rbodleyscott
Field of Glory 2
Field of Glory 2
Posts: 22687
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Re: pike-shot footprint at varying sizes

Post by rbodleyscott » Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:53 pm

DanielS wrote:
LambertSimnel wrote: Tilly's Early Thirty Years' War German Catholic army can have it's foot in 12 base Early Tercios
:shock: I find that both surprising and disapointing as modern research on the subject points in a rather diffrent direction and there is of course the fact that the Germans didn't use 'Tercios' at all (indeed not even the Spanish used a tactical formation called a "tercio") but rather fought in regiments & battalions.
Daniel,

Why don't you wait till you see the actual lists before you throw up your hands in horror.

All may not be as black as your worst fears. (Then again it might be, but at least give us the benefit of the doubt until you see the lists).

Also bear in mind that as long as the lists allow you to use options that concord with your reading of history, nobody will be harmed if other players want to use additional options that you deem less realistic or based on discredited historical views.

Richard

bertalucci
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:43 am

Post by bertalucci » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:30 am

The Perfect Captain website has a mass of Campaign ideas and systems for vaoius periods covered by FoGR & FoGAM. (All free)
Which in my view can work well without massive time investment

DanielS
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:05 am

Re: pike-shot footprint at varying sizes

Post by DanielS » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:50 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
Daniel,

Why don't you wait till you see the actual lists before you throw up your hands in horror.

All may not be as black as your worst fears. (Then again it might be, but at least give us the benefit of the doubt until you see the lists).
Point taken, I'll do so. The dark side of intense study of a period is a certain amount of obsession with it, at times flavoured with a dash of obnoxiousness.
rbodleyscott wrote: Also bear in mind that as long as the lists allow you to use options that concord with your reading of history, nobody will be harmed if other players want to use additional options that you deem less realistic or based on discredited historical views.
I suspect that this is point where we will have to agree to disagree as I do consider keeping "discredited historical views" alive in army lists & rules to be potentially harmfull as far as the historical part of the hobby is concerned. Romantic/Heroic stuff like the wild Finnish hackapells is one thing, at worst such things are annoying. But major errors/distortions like "everyone caracoled until Gustavus Adolphus reinvented the cavalry charge" or "Tilly used Spanish formations which were huge, clumsy and backwards" is another matter IMO. Do note that these are simply examples, I'm not saying that this is what is done in the lists, as you correctly pointed out I should read the lists before making further comments, rather than reacting to short online descriptions taken out of context.

Daniel

DanielS
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:05 am

Post by DanielS » Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:36 pm

I've now recived both the rules and the WoR army lists, at first glance there is much to be impressed by but also some parts that are deeply disapointing, particularly as the serious research effort I had seen online on some subjects left me with some fairly high hopes due to the qualified way in which the questions were asked.

The description of the Leaugist infantry and their choice of tactics fall into the "deeply disapointing" category I'm afraid as what I found was worse than my worst fears. The actual list is not main problem as it offers a possible way to work around the issue, rather it is the sweeping and by no means uncertain description found in the "Troop Notes" which contains a number of serious errors which are not supported by the primary sources or well researched modern secondary sources.

Scrumpy
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Colonel - Fallschirmjäger
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:27 pm
Location: NoVa

Post by Scrumpy » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:02 pm

Namely ?

DanielS
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:05 am

Post by DanielS » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:36 pm

That Tilly was obsessed with forming up his pikes in old fashioned deep formations, my guess is that it is based on Guthrie but well researched modern works such as Junkelmann points in a rather diffrent direction as do the primary sources for forexample Breitenfeldt.

That Leaugist infantry regiments were much larger than the Imperial regiments in the field. Another thing which may have been taken from Guthrie. But the sources don't show the marked difference in strenght described. At Lutter 1626 the Leaugist regiments were 600 to 1500 men while the Imperial regiments sent by Wallenstein were 1500 to 2000 strong. The Bindauf Lists showing Tilly's foot at Magdeburg and in August 1631 show no such marked difference between the two nor do the Werben list. Geleen's Leugist regiment fielded 2000 men in the Breitenfeld campaign but so did several of Fürstenberg's Imperial regiments and so on.
Some Imperial regiments were weaker only because they had been raised with fewer companies, 5 instead of the customary 10 but on the battlefield such untis were combined to form battalions.

Between the army list and the "Troop Notes" Tilly's and his infantry is presented as fighting in large & old fashioned formations in no uncertain terms.

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10287
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Post by nikgaukroger » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:19 am

DanielS wrote:That Tilly was obsessed with forming up his pikes in old fashioned deep formations, my guess is that it is based on Guthrie but well researched modern works such as Junkelmann points in a rather diffrent direction as do the primary sources for forexample Breitenfeldt.
Maybe the guy who wrote the list will comment, however, I do know that when pressed on the issue he was clear that the resources he used supported what he wrote. They'd be German, and not Guthrie :)
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

Montesa
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:43 pm

Re: pike-shot footprint at varying sizes

Post by Montesa » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:22 am

But the 'Mangas' were not in any way tied down into static positions at each corner, they could and would move to the position where they would have the most effect. For example prints of Nieuport 1600 show all 4 'Mangas' advancing in front of the Escaudron of pikes. At Nördlingen not only the Mangas of the Tercio's defending the Albuch move independtly on the hillside to employ their firepower to the best effect but a large number of Mangas waiting below the hill was detached from their Escaudron's and sent to join the fight on top of the hill.
And the "mangas" (sleeves) also take refuge in the "escuadrón" (square) of pikemen if the cavalry charged the tercio.

ethan
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1284
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:40 pm

Post by ethan » Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:04 am

one thing to bear in mind is the commanding out shot rule, which looks like it could allow a lot more flexibilty than might be otherwise appareant.

Post Reply

Return to “Field of Glory : Renaissance Wars : General Discussion”