Suggested amendments

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Sarmaticus
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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by Sarmaticus » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:38 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:I would suggest that it is probably Determined Horse (and therefore probably also Cavaliers) in general that are slightly overpriced, not Polish hussars in particular.
In that case, one fix for Polish hussars in particular might be to allow some to be heavily armoured, ignoring the pacholeks. treating the comrades the same way as single rank of gensdarmes en haye.
Comparisons with the Swedes aren't necessarilly helpful as their mounted weren't terribly good until they were later based in Germany. Mostly hussars should ride down Turks and Muscovites.

ravenflight
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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by ravenflight » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:17 pm

ethan wrote:When game mechanics create tactics that are that obviously ahistorical, effective and silly looking it makes the game look bad even when there are possible counters. If someone was trying it as a last ditch kind of thing or a newbie who got slaughtered giving it a shot then whatever. When it is something that is even marginally viable it needs to go - especially when there are relatively simple modifications that would get rid of it.
I really don't have a clue about the problem here, so may be (probably am) talking out of my arse, but would it be practical/reasonable to enforce commanded shot to ONLY to deploy in the wings AND take a -ve to cohesion tests if in the middle? My reasoning is... "I'm small and brittle, I don't want to play with the big boys" would have a morale effect.

At least then getting ahistorical use of the troops would come at a cost that MAY cause issue when troops start breaking.

I also wonder at the + for death rolls. It can be bloody hard to get more than one hit on commanded shot, so they are effectively invulnerable to shooting unless you use interlocking fields of artillery... Which seems a bit weird. Artillery were elite in this period. Using them to get rid of the scary commanded shot just seems weird.

ethan
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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by ethan » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:25 pm

bahdahbum wrote: So what is historical ?
What is not historical is using Swedish commanded shot supported by artillery fire (at three times the density of artillery fire that a swedish brigade could muster) as your primary anti-infantry strike force.

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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by timmy1 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:34 pm

IF (and I don't think it is proven) we see loads of Salvo Commanded Shot and Reg gun BGs being used as anti-infantry weapons then we should do something about it but it must be counterbalanced by fixing salvo at short range.

To fix the salvo at short range I have already made a recommendation. To fix Salvo CS + Reg Gun how about the Reg gun not counting for a dice against foot troops other than Dragoons. The CS can still play anti-infantry strike force if they want but the Reg Guns become an expensive adornment if used ahistorically. However you cannot change this without fixing the salvo short range part.

bahdahbum
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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by bahdahbum » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:42 pm

so they are effectively invulnerable to shooting
Did you ever play with detached shot . I wonder . It is so easy to have 4-6 shots at them ...and some will hit ...even with the +1 death roll you can kill them or just charge them ...

But I only once used a commanded shot as a anti-infantry weapon because I had nothing else to protect a flank and it was in the course of the battle not anticipated . The protecting unit had been routed ...

Otherwise I use it to protect mounted that protects the commanded shot...

Now if some guns did go with those guys, let them use it as it is historical . If not , no guns .

Sarmaticus
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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by Sarmaticus » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:53 pm

ethan wrote:
bahdahbum wrote: So what is historical ?
What is not historical is using Swedish commanded shot supported by artillery fire (at three times the density of artillery fire that a swedish brigade could muster) as your primary anti-infantry strike force.
Part of the problem, in terms of historicity, might be that Swedish commanded musketeers were deployed in bodies of from 50 to 200 men: a Swedish brigade could field around a thousand at Luetzen. In FoG units, the ratio is 1:2, rather than 1:5 at best, so the commanded shot are likely to be far too powerful.
Compounding the effect, each body commanded shot at Luetzen had two regimental pieces (a total of twenty) but as many more with the infantry brigades. Although the Swedish Intelligencer showed six guns with each of the eight brigades, the Merian print shows four with each of the four frontline units. That gives twice as much artillery firepower per brigade as per commanded musketeer detachment.
I would suggest accepting that the grapeshot of the pair of 3pdrs is subsumed under the Musketeer bases: that still leaves earlier, cannonless types too strong but nothing's perfect.
Last edited by Sarmaticus on Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ethan
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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by ethan » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:01 pm

This suggests another possible solution if you want to keep the ability of commanded shot to have regimental guns. You could add a rule something like "regimental guns cannot contribute more than 1 dice per 3 dice of shooting from other sources" on a target.

So if you have 2 commanded shot units each with a regimental gun, only one regimental gun would count. When the commanded shot were spread out they would get to count all the guns.

bahdahbum
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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by bahdahbum » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:54 pm

It's a game . Sometimes you should keep it simple .

First : are the swedish armies such a big threath to all other amies that only swedish armies appear and only swedish armies wins tournaments . the answer is NO . So why all that fuss about an army that wins no or nearly no tournaments and that people seem to perceive as the best army of all FOGR ...army that is no real winner .....why ? :D

Sarmaticus
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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by Sarmaticus » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:22 pm

Could be because people would like Swedish armies to be effective in ways that are based on history. In FoG's own terms, the commanded shot are over-powered relative to the infantry brigades. They didn't normally have Battalion Guns(except at Luetzen) anyway.

ravenflight
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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by ravenflight » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:32 am

Sarmaticus wrote:They didn't normally have Battalion Guns(except at Luetzen) anyway.
Again, an 'out there' comment. I don't know the army or the list so please take that into consideration.

Would a scenario list "only at Luetzen" in which case C-in-C MUST be a great commander, commanded shot MUST be used, and commanded shot MUST have regimental guns - so far you've just spent over 100 points, and I don't know how min-maxing would affect the choices they would have in the time frame. They could ONLY have the troops available at Luetzen.

(cheese factor) you could also say that your Great Commander MUST be lost on the 5th turn :)

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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by Sarmaticus » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:30 am

Wouldn't that take the lists down the path trodden by a certain once near universal ancients set, where lists are specified pretty much as a particular OOB largely because someone has dug up that level of detail on that army?
It would still leave the Luetzen army with super-powered commanded shot.

ravenflight
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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by ravenflight » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:34 am

Sarmaticus wrote:Wouldn't that take the lists down the path trodden by a certain once near universal ancients set, where lists are specified pretty much as a particular OOB largely because someone has dug up that level of detail on that army?
In a sense yes, but is that any different to the (for example) relief of Vienna army?

Sarmaticus wrote:It would still leave the Luetzen army with super-powered commanded shot.
Yes, and as I said in my original post I don't know the list/battle/army at all, but I'm suggesting that perhaps the limitations that you would be forced to take because you've got the Luetzen army may not be attractive. For example, in my Later Louis XIV list you MUST be in Spain to use light foot. It may or may not be an issue if you really want Light Foot, but you can't take light foot AND Guard infantry... what's more, you MUST take 18 bases of poor foot... all of which may be perfectly acceptable to you, but DOES limit the choices somewhat. I can't do the 'designer killer army' of 'exactly what I want'.

In the case of the Luetzen army (which I know not at all as previously said) you may HAVE to take 8 bases of Superior Cavalry (I have no idea) and so by the time you take the compulsory Commanded Shot, Great Commander, 8 bases of Superior Determined Horse do you like the list that you're left with as options? I don't know, it may be the killer army from hell for all I know, but it WOULD stop people min-maxing the commanded shot hunter killers in other lists.

Hell, I'll pretty much always take a Great Commander if at all possible, but with an elite army like Swedes it may be a cost that makes it less attractive.

bahdahbum
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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by bahdahbum » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:20 pm

They didn't normally have Battalion Guns(except at Luetzen) anyway
My point of view is : if they had it, they should be able to use it .

Now if you want the CIC to be above average, why not .

Mind you , it is a costly little unit that will die if shot at by too many ennemies or engaged in a melee with 2 dice against 3-4 dice ...it should loose in the long run and a unit is a unit for morale . It is not such a monster .

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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by kevinj » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:59 pm

From my perspective it's not that the Swedes are "too good" but rectifying a couple of anomalies with the current list.

Firstly, I haven't seen any evidence that Swedish Commanded Shot behaved differently to any other. Therefore there is no reson for them to have the Salvo capability, and they would be better suited for their historical usage (and less tempting for unhistorical use) if they had the Musket capability instead.

Secondly, while it is the case that Swedish Commanded Shot used regimental guns (at least at Lutzen), the way that their effect is modelled in Fog R is not well suited to a small BG. For a normal Pike and Shot BG, the Regimental gun marker represents a number of such pieces spread across the whole front of the BG, whose effect is modelled as one extra shooting dice for the whole BG. Giving the same effect for a 2 base Commanded Shot BG disproportionately represents the additional shooting provided by the regimental guns. Ethan's suggestion above would give a better representation of the proportionate effect, but would add a level of complexity. The simplest solution would therefore be to disallow Regimental Guns for Commanded Shot.

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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by Sarmaticus » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:03 pm

That should sort it. Good idea to drop the salvo, particularly as the Musketeer bases are representing less men than those in the Brigades.

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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by bahdahbum » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:10 pm

The simplest solution would therefore be to disallow Regimental Guns for Commanded Shot
and so , the feared swedish army would be less feared :D even if history says they had it they may not :shock:

So everyone admitts they had regimental guns in commanded shots but you want to deny it to them . Ok what's next : the mandatory loss of the CIC at turn 5 :lol:

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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by kevinj » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:21 pm

So everyone admitts they had regimental guns in commanded shots but you want to deny it to them
There's no question they existed but my point is that the way that Fog R represents the regimental guns doesn't really work with tiny BGs. I'd be just as happy with Ethan's suggestion (regimental guns cannot contribute more than 1 dice per 3 dice of shooting) but I suspect that people would then regard them as not cost effective for comanded shot and wouldn't take them anyway.

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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by bahdahbum » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:15 pm

I'd be just as happy with Ethan's suggestion (regimental guns cannot contribute more than 1 dice per 3 dice of shooting
Ok but full dice or per group of dice . What I mean is if you have dice firing , would you count or guns ?

With or without other units firing ?

And mind you a swedish brigade has only 2 dice firing ...so in order to have 3 dice they need the gun . Is that what you meanif you have 2 dice , a third die may come from the regimental guns ? and what if the brigade has lost one , just one base they will have no more guns because they are swedish and have 1 die per 2bases shooting ..

So with your idea, a swedish brigade will loose it's regimental gun with the first base lost ...it seems a bit too harsh .

I am begining to think someone hates ABBA :D

The rules work rather well, why destroy the toy !

Minor changes are OK but here you change the whole equilibrium of an army . And one of the most colorfull and different army you can play with .

Swedish are different, they even have to pay for their "swedish brigade" formation while the keils, early and latter tercios do not have to pay for their advantages ...and now people want to castrate them ...I still wonder why as they are no winner ...and are beaten if you know how to do it .

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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by Sarmaticus » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:41 pm

bahdahbum wrote:
The simplest solution would therefore be to disallow Regimental Guns for Commanded Shot
and so , the feared swedish army would be less feared :D even if history says they had it they may not :shock:

So everyone admitts they had regimental guns in commanded shots but you want to deny it to them . Ok what's next : the mandatory loss of the CIC at turn 5 :lol:
It's a question of how to fit history into the set of concepts used by FoGR. 50 to 200 Commanded Shot are represented by two bases: just four bases are used to represent 1,000 musketeers in a Brigade; the Brigade had four 3pdrs; the Commanded Shot had two, that doesn't represent their respective fighting power which is what the rules are supposed to do. FoG is a top-down set designed to model the effect of troops: Commanded Shot were assigned to give Swedish cavalry a chance of standing up to Imperialist and Leaguer Cuirassiers. They were not meant to be able to survive on their own or fight on their own and we don't read of them roaming the battlefield in their own right.

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Re: Suggested amendments

Post by Sarmaticus » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:53 pm

I don't think it's about Swedish armies being too strong; It's that Commanded Shot with Regimental Guns are, so I hear, able to do things that they could not have done in reality, purely because of the way FoGR represents them. They were small bodies purely for the support of their cavalry. Think of it like the * on Royalists Muskets that represents a real world lower proportion of shot to pikes, although the number of bases and often the number of figures is the same as standard Muskets: each base of Commanded Shot, in the same way, represents at best two fifths as many shooters as each base in a Brigade. At present, they shoot just as well.

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