The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

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nikgaukroger
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The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by nikgaukroger » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:40 am

Points, ever a discussion topic; however, rather relevant what with the Determined Horse issue. So let’s see what people think might be good changes to the existing points …

First a few things to bear in mind – “rules” for a points change discussion if you like.

1. In a wargame with so many different troops types and capabilities points values are relatively subjective and there can be no absolute right values; the best we can manage is a reasonable consensus.
2. Because of this there is no point in struggling for spurious “perfection/accuracy” in the points; it’s “close enough for government work” territory.
3. Stick with whole integer values, no half points – because of the above points. Similarly stick with the current framework, no doubling/etc. of values as all you end up doing is arguing over the said spurious accuracy for no real benefit.
4. Points values are for the whole game and not a sub-set of troops/capabilities. So you can’t just set the points for, say, Pike Vs. Horse whilst ignoring how they also relate to Pike Vs. Warriors. However, if there is a decision to be made it should aim to get the balance between historical match-ups right over ahistorical ones – e.g. if there is doubt over the exact points for Elephants the final choice should be the one that gets the match-ups for Asian warfare best balanced even if they are not quite right for match-ups against TYW armies.
5. Assume no rules changes are going to happen unless the authors indicate they are changing something.
6. Something I've forgotten …


OK, so here are some to kick things off:

1. Obvious one first - Superior, Armoured, Determined Horse, Impact Pistol, Melee Pistol should be 16 points like Superior, Heavily Armoured, Impact Pistol, Melee Pistol and other Determined Horse, Gendarmes & Cavalier points should be adjusted around this “base line”. Widely accepted that the cost for these 3 types is too high.
2. Pistol/Carbine (shooting) should cost 1 point not 2 points. Value of these shooting is not worth 2 points.
3. Base points cost for Cavalry and Horse should be the same. Cavalry have some advantages (can evade) and disadvantages (- CT modifier when shot at by gunpowder handguns) that balance out and functionally are about as useful as Horse.
Nik Gaukroger

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by hood_mick » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:00 am

I don't think 2 dice mounted should be reduced by many points. I think that a point a base is enough so I suggest 2 points a base as 3 i feel is too many.

Over all they are better than heavly armoured horse. Better vs foot, in terrain and they are shock.

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by johngl » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:27 pm

I agree with all Nik's proposals. Implement those and sort out the artillery issues (preferably with Alasdair's suggestion of simply removing captured artillery, and using blank bases for passing through friendly artillery), and I think we're there.

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by Vespasian28 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:13 pm

Agree with Nik's suggestion, especially carbine/pistol shooting mounted, and will leave the exact points to be hammered out by more experienced types.

As for artillery I would replace captured but uncrewed guns with a blank base to allow easy interpenetration by all but leave artillery pretty much alone otherwise excepting mounted should be hit on 5's. Only deep formations should be hit on 4's even if that means my tiny, harmless colunellas are just as good a target as that chuffing great Swiss kiel coming my way :(

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by timmy1 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:39 pm

As this a points thread can the posts about other things please be moved or deleted?

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by timmy1 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:41 pm

1, For the 2 dice Mounted, I completely agree with Nik but if it was a 2 point reduction rather than 3 I would be happy.
2, Pistol / Carbine I agree but I am talking my own book as I use Swedes and Parliamentarians.
3, Not fussed.

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by nikgaukroger » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:35 pm

nikgaukroger wrote: 3. Base points cost for Cavalry and Horse should be the same. Cavalry have some advantages (can evade) and disadvantages (- CT modifier when shot at by gunpowder handguns) that balance out and functionally are about as useful as Horse.
Of course I didn't say here whether Cavalry should come down to Horse cost, or Horse rise to Cavalry cost ...

I do recall somebody (Richard?) suggesting that regardless of the DH points issue that cuirassiers may currently be a touch under-priced which may indicate Horse going up rather than cavalry coming down. Thoughts?

Also if shooting Pistol and Carbine are better costed at 1 would the same apply to mounted Bow, and mounted Bow* cost 0?
Nik Gaukroger

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by scuzi » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:09 am

I also agree with Nik’s suggestions
One thing has been left out and that is should impact mounted be 3 points?

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:11 am

scuzi wrote: One thing has been left out and that is should impact mounted be 3 points?
Good one - perhaps 2 points would be more appropriate?

Thoughts folks?
Nik Gaukroger

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by kevinj » Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:26 am

It’s a bit of an essay I’m afraid, but let’s start with my thoughts on what has been suggested so far:

Cavalry/Horse: I like the idea of equalising the points using the current Cavalry Base. This would raise the cost of HA Superior Pi/Pi to 18 without any other changes and would narrow the gap to Armoured Superior Pi/Pi DH to just 3 points. It would also go some way to resolving my own pet peeve with Cavalry Light Lance suffering the extra cost and disadvantages of being Cavalry without gaining the major benefit. I'd leave Light Horse where it currently is as I think the current costs seem right.

Determined Horse: There is a premium of around 80% at the base level to upgrade from Horse to Determined Horse (e.g. Superior Armoured being 10 and 18 points before weapon capabilities). This would reduce to 50% if Horse were moved to the Cavalry base cost. For that you get 2 dice in combat and are automatically Shock Troops. There is a widespread view that DH are currently overpriced by about 2 points, if the base cost were reduced by this the premium would be around 33% if the cost of Horse had been raised to the Cavalry base. Would that be sufficient for the extra value?

Carbines/Shooty Pistols: I agree that these are not worth the extra point and should reduce to 1. Mounted bow seems quite popular and I don’t think requires a reduction in cost as it has better range and factors against most opponents.

Impact Pistol/Impact Mounted: These are currently 1 and 3 points respectively and this seems too great a variance for their relative value. The options would be either raising the cost of Impact Pistol to 2 or reducing the cost of Impact Mounted to 2. I favour the latter as it has a lower overall effect, Impact mounted being uncommon in the lists and even rarer on the table.

The cumulative effects of these changes would be to make the following cost adjustments for some of the common types:
Reiter- Unarmoured/Armoured Average Horse, Carbine/Pistol: 9/11 – 9/11
Cuirassiers - Armoured/Heavily Armoured Superior Horse, Pistol/Pistol: 13/16 – 15/18
Demi Cuirassiers – Armoured Superior DH, Pistol/Pistol: 21 – 19
Polish Hussars - Armoured Superior DH, Impact/Sword: 23 – 20

And here are some other thoughts:

Arquebus/Musket*/Musket: Currently 2 points for the first two and 3 for musket. At long/effective range 4 bases armed with these will shoot with 0/4, 2/3 and 2/4 dice respectively. For me, the difference between Arquebus and Musket* is greater than that between Musket* and Musket. Increasing the cost of Musket* doesn’t seem right so I suggest reducing Arquebus to 1 point.

Foot Bow/Crossbow: There has been some debate on this in the past so it’s worth including for discussion. Is bow too effective at 1 point? Compared to Musket* it gets more shooting dice at a longer effective range, plus better POAs vs mounted. It loses out on the death roll (which I’ve found is often mitigated by more hits due to better effective range/POAs) and in melee as it loses the armour negation of shot. On balance I’d reckon it’s worth nearer 2 points than 1. If Bow becomes 2 points, it seems unreasonable for crossbow to remain free, especially as where they are contemporary (in early western Armies) their effectiveness is very similar as the Crossbow’s – POA against foot is compensated for by the fact that a greater proportion of the foot is Armoured and it’s actually better against Fully Armoured Foot or Gendarmes. Even if Bow remains 1 point, I think Crossbow is nearer to 1 point value than 0.

Bayonet: 2 points in all shot BGs, free if you’re already paying the 1 point for a mixed pike/shot BG. I think 1 point would be more consistent here.

Light Foot: I think the cost of Musket (and currently Arquebus) is too high for their relative effectiveness with Light Foot. The same would be true of Bow if the cost were raised. Ideally I’d prefer 2 points for Musket and 1 for the others but I appreciate that this would change the basis on which costs are applied and this may make it too cumbersome for what is an obsolete troop type.

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by johngl » Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:37 am

And a jolly good essay too. All very convincing, and I think these changes would effect some highly desirable rebalancing.

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:48 am

kevinj wrote:It’s a bit of an essay I’m afraid, but let’s start with my thoughts on what has been suggested so far:

Much appreciated - I look forward to peoples comments; get writing folks :D
Nik Gaukroger

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:11 am

OK here is a quick and dirty scheme for what basic points might look like if we equalised Cavalry/Camelry with Horse, using the former’s existing points as the benchmark, and also benchmarked Superior, HA, Pi/Pi Horse and Superior, A, Pi/Pi, Determined Horse at the same base points cost.

I’ve costed Cavaliers at 1 point lower than equivalent Determined Horse and tweaked Gendarmes based on that.

I’ve kept LH as they are currently costed as per Kevin’s suggestion.

Costs on each line are for Elite/Superior/Average/Poor. Nice tabular presentation can come later 8)

Armoured Determined Horse 18/15/10/6
Unarmoured Determined Horse 15/12/8/5
Fully- or heavily-Armoured Gendarmes 20/17/12/8
Armoured Cavaliers 17/14/9/5
Unarmoured Cavaliers 14/11/7/4
Heavily Armoured Cavalry/Camelry 18/15/10/6
Armoured Cavalry/Camelry 15/12/8/5
Unarmoured Cavalry/Camelry 11/9/6/4
Heavily Armoured Horse 18/15/10/6
Armoured Horse 15/12/8/5
Unarmoured Horse 11/9/6/4
Armoured Light Horse 12/10/7/4
Unarmoured Light Horse 10/8/5/3
Nik Gaukroger

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by Three » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:20 am

I'm largely in favour of all those suggestions, except the Horse/Cavalry balance. My view is that I'd reduce the Cavalry cost rather than increasing that of the Horse, simply because that would make all the 16th century Average Horse too expensive for what they are. English demi-lancers and the like are pretty lacklustre as they stand, making them more expensive won't help, it's shifting the problem rather than solving it imo.

I'd simply allow "Cavalry" in 1 rank to evade, irrespective of their weaponry.

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:30 am

The version below is using the current Horse basic costs as the benchmark for Cavalry/Camelry and Horse - no changes to LH in this model (as yet?). Must admit this is the one I'd choose if it were a straight choice as it'd tend to get a few more toys on the table than upping some points, which I generally view as a good thing (tm) :D

Armoured Determined Horse 16/13/9/5
Unarmoured Determined Horse 12/10/7/4
Fully- or heavily-Armoured Gendarmes 18/15/10/6
Armoured Cavaliers 15/12/8/4
Unarmoured Cavaliers 11/19/6/3
Heavily Armoured Cavalry/Camelry 16/13/9/5
Armoured Cavalry/Camelry 12/10/7/4
Unarmoured Cavalry/Camelry 10/8/5/3
Heavily Armoured Horse 16/13/9/5
Armoured Horse 12/10/7/4
Unarmoured Horse 10/8/5/3
Armoured Light Horse 12/10/7/4
Unarmoured Light Horse 10/8/5/3
Nik Gaukroger

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:30 am

Three wrote: I'd simply allow "Cavalry" in 1 rank to evade, irrespective of their weaponry.
One for a new topic IMO, lets keep this one to points.
Nik Gaukroger

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by kevinj » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:48 am

A different option, apply the higher values for Superior/Elite and the lower ones for Average/Poor. Makes the lesser troops more attractive while reducing the chance of being swamped by even more superior types:

Armoured Determined Horse 18/15/9/5
Unarmoured Determined Horse 15/12/7/4
Fully- or heavily-Armoured Gendarmes 20/17/10/6
Armoured Cavaliers 17/14/8/4
Unarmoured Cavaliers 14/11/6/3
Heavily Armoured Horse/Cavalry 18/15/9/5
Armoured Cavalry/Cavalry 15/12/7/4
Unarmoured Horse/Cavalry 11/9/5/3
Armoured Light Horse 12/10/7/4
Unarmoured Light Horse 10/8/5/3

For simplicity I've combined Cavalry/Horse as they would cost the same. Camelry is as per that row plus 1 point for the hump(s).

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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:52 am

kevinj wrote:A different option, apply the higher values for Superior/Elite and the lower ones for Average/Poor. Makes the lesser troops more attractive while reducing the chance of being swamped by even more superior types:

Cunning 8)
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vexillia

Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by vexillia » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:55 am

Formatted & aligned version:

Code: Select all

Type                                    E  S  A  P
----                                   -- -- -- --
Armoured Determined Horse		        16/13/09/05
Unarmoured Determined Horse		      12/10/07/04
Fully- or heavily-Armoured Gendarmes   18/15/10/06
Armoured Cavaliers				         15/12/08/04
Unarmoured Cavaliers			          11/19/06/03
Heavily Armoured Cavalry/Camelry		 16/13/09/05
Armoured Cavalry/Camelry			      12/10/07/04
Unarmoured Cavalry/Camelry		       10/08/05/03
Heavily Armoured Horse			        16/13/09/05      
Armoured Horse				             12/10/07/04      
Unarmoured Horse				           10/08/05/03
Armoured Light Horse				       12/10/07/04
Unarmoured Light Horse			        10/08/05/03
Last edited by vexillia on Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

nikgaukroger
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Re: The wholly unofficial points revision sticky …

Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:59 am

Ta 8)
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