Orcs and Goblins

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grahambriggs
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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by grahambriggs » Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:46 pm

sorry - thought you meant 'mobbed and beat'

re armour - my advice is get the interaction right first and fit into the armour class second. i.e. use the fudge on page 135. That's why Swiis pike (full plate front ranks) are still only protected while Macedonian companions (bronze breastplate) are armoured.

Average skilled sword seems OK to me - it's really just a coincidence that the historicals are all superior. Impact foot no melee weapon will be poor value (not a problem for reenactments). The things that are red line in the historical lists are stuff like off spear and HW. Just too good so RBS banned them. But if you want elf supertroops that might be a route. There are declining returns in terms of points though - there comes a point when more capabilities means more cost without any increase in effectiveness.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by davekhan » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:14 pm

Mb
actually there is plenty of black swans pubs in England In fact there is a great one that sales real ale just down the road from me, so yes there are black swans in Europe you just have to look in the right place :) .
MatthewB wrote:They would up being massacred by the Elven Knights in two of the games - remember, they don't get the Archer Support if they charge, only when they stand to receive a charge).


LOL who in there right mind would charge Morgul Uruks orcs against your ELF KNIGHTS No ones that stupid are they ! Twice !! :shock:

MB its good to see that you are starting to read the rule about armour, hope all your figures fit the armour rule as my orc have a hard job filling the armour spec but I bet you have GW stuff so you prob ok .so its unprotected and protected for my troops

happy gaming
DK

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by eldiablito » Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:09 am

Yeah, GW orcs are another army list. Entirely!

They have choppas and gain a bonus to impact: light spear to impact foot entirely! They fight like anyone else so swordsman is fine, and they deserve protected too. Average and undrilled are requirements. That sounds like. Basic warbands to me. Now, to upgrade them to Big'uns, you make them superior. Finally, the Black orcs could gain heavy weapons and drilled.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:58 am

davekhan wrote:Mb
actually there is plenty of black swans pubs in England In fact there is a great one that sales real ale just down the road from me, so yes there are black swans in Europe you just have to look in the right place :) .
MatthewB wrote:They would up being massacred by the Elven Knights in two of the games - remember, they don't get the Archer Support if they charge, only when they stand to receive a charge).


LOL who in there right mind would charge Morgul Uruks orcs against your ELF KNIGHTS No ones that stupid are they ! Twice !! :shock:

MB its good to see that you are starting to read the rule about armour, hope all your figures fit the armour rule as my orc have a hard job filling the armour spec but I bet you have GW stuff so you prob ok .so its unprotected and protected for my troops

happy gaming
DK
The Black Swans in England came from Australia. They imported them in the 18th century, because of the Black Swan induction problem.

Black Swan Theory
"The phrase "black swan" derives from a Latin expression; its oldest known occurrence is the poet Juvenal's characterization of something being "rara avis in terris nigroque simillima cygno" ("a rare bird in the lands, very much like a black swan"; 6.165). In English, when the phrase was coined, the black swan was presumed not to exist. The importance of the simile lies in its analogy to the fragility of any system of thought. A set of conclusions is potentially undone once any of its fundamental postulates is disproved. In this case, the observation of a single black swan would be the undoing of the phrase's underlying logic, as well as any reasoning that followed from that underlying logic.
Juvenal's phrase was a common expression in 16th century London as a statement of impossibility. The London expression derives from the Old World presumption that all swans must be white because all historical records of swans reported that they had white feathers. In that context, a black swan was impossible or at least nonexistent. After Dutch explorer Willem de Vlamingh discovered black swans in Western Australia in 1697, the term metamorphosed to connote that a perceived impossibility might later be disproven. Taleb notes that in the 19th century John Stuart Mill used the black swan logical fallacy as a new term to identify falsification."

As has been pointed out above. The absence of Average quality Skilled Swordsmen in the Army Lists is just a fluke.

As to: No one in their "right mind" would charge them (Elf Cav).... That's why you should try to take advantage of the fact that the are shock troops who might charge on their own, and if the have no other path save through the Elf Knights (remember, their side of the table is crowded) then they are pretty much trapped, and thus you don't need to worry about them too much, if they don't charge on their own.

And, what do you mean "GW stuff?"

I do have some of their LotR figures, but mostly humans (Haradrim, Rohirrim, Gondor). All of my Elves and Goblins are Thunderbolt Mountain Miniatures (many that I have converted), or older Ral Partha Goblins from the 1970s/80s.

The Thunderbolt Mountain Goblins are in Chain or Scale. The Ral Partha Goblins vary, but most are in chain or scale (a few have nothing but a really big shield, and a helmet).

I do have some GW Orcs, but none are painted. I will probably sculpt some of my own Orcs and Goblins over the next year, to go with the TM and Ral Partha Goblins. I don't much care for Peter Jackson's vision of Middle-earth.

MB

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by davekhan » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:55 pm

MatthewB wrote:As to: No one in their "right mind" would charge them (Elf Cav).... That's why you should try to take advantage of the fact that the are shock troops who might charge on their own, and if the have no other path save through the Elf Knights (remember, their side of the table is crowded) then they are pretty much trapped, and thus you don't need to worry about them too much, if they don't charge on their own.

Your lack of the rules is outstanding ! shock foot DONT HAVED TO CHARGE MOUNTED they aint stupid !
Please read more and play GAMES with out any of your mods ,I think you will pick up the rules better if you play more as the are a bloody good set .

And having a Crowded table with only 12 B.G on a side cant be crowded ? What size table do you play on if you cant fix a mere 12 b.g on it ! Then the table is far too small and your battle groups aint large ,I don't have a prob fitting 15 B.G on my table rear support is put in the rules for a reason .
If you have a small table then the orc play should think about a flank march then !
There is no way on middle earth that a orc army can face up to your uber elf troopers if they just charge straight up the table that's madness !

I am 95% shore that you can only have 1 allied general in a army but hay are armies are make believe any way .so ye you do you now thing but I try and stick close to the rules as possible
MatthewB wrote: I don't much care for Peter Jackson's vision of Middle-earth.
[/quote]
why all the stuff about hvy wpn in 1st rank followed by spear ect. just like the movie . and them nice pics if you don't think hes done a good job .

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:23 am

Maybe you should be paying attention to the number of bases, and not the number of BGs.

That is 116 bases (most of them 80mm x 30mm), on a 7 x 4 table.

In approximately two ranks, that's 4.64 meters of frontage. Notice that a 7 x 4 table is a little more than 2 meters across (2.12 meters).

That makes for quite a tight fit for those "13 BGs" (not 12).

The number of BGs is not indicative of how crowded a table will be. One should look at the number of bases.

And the Superior Orcs don't need to charge the Knights. All they need to do is charge something that is close enough for the knights to intercept. Seeing as the Elves have a lot of room to maneuver, it isn't difficult to set it up to draw troops into positions where one can take advantage of such things (either that, or have them charge a foot group that will hold for at least a turn, and then maneuver to charge the Morgul Uruks in the flank or rear - rear would be hard to do, but less difficult to get to the side). Fortunately, I didn't have to worry about it, as the Orcs helped by charging into another unit, and were met by the Knight in Interception. The Orcs still count as charging, either way, and cannot use their support shooting."

As for "Rear Support..." Rear Support isn't very helpful for most of the troops. The rear support needs to be "Better or Equal troops." Notice all of those "Poor" quality BGs. 6 of the BGs are poor quality. So, you either put all 6 of those BGs in the front (30 bases frontage, in two BLs - except that those 6BGs won't all fit on a 7 foot table's frontage, especially with terrain in the way... That's about 2.5 meters frontage), and hope that all of those average and superior troops don't run off when they have a wall of poor troops routing to their front (even though they are providing "Rear Support") or you put the Poor Troops in the rear, and none of the front BGs get rear support...

And, One can have up to 3 Allied Generals.
From p.28:
"Each army must have a commander-in-chief and 1 to 3 subordinate or allied commanders.")
From p. 29:
"Some armies can have one or more allied contingents."

You keep thinking that I don't know the rules, yet I am not the one who consistently is making claims about the rules that are not justified by them.

And.... If you look at the Elf Army List I posted, I don't have multiple lines of Elves. I just have the Mixed BG of Spear with a rank of Bows in back.

That was just discussion about what they did in the movies. It did not reflect what I am doing in any army lists. I did have some thoughts about some issues with Easterlings that might need something like that, but ultimately I decided that it could be handled with a different mechanism.

MB

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by grahambriggs » Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:48 pm

davekhan wrote:I am 95% shore that you can only have 1 allied general in a army but hay are armies are make believe any way .so ye you do you now thing but I try and stick close to the rules as possible
No, armies are allowed more than one ally. ou can have three if the army list allows.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by grahambriggs » Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:58 pm

MatthewB wrote:Maybe you should be paying attention to the number of bases, and not the number of BGs.

That is 116 bases (most of them 80mm x 30mm), on a 7 x 4 table.

In approximately two ranks, that's 4.64 meters of frontage. Notice that a 7 x 4 table is a little more than 2 meters across (2.12 meters).

That makes for quite a tight fit for those "13 BGs" (not 12).

The number of BGs is not indicative of how crowded a table will be. One should look at the number of bases.
If you're basing the troops 80mm wide then that'll be why things are crowded. So a 12 base unit, say two deep, would be 48cm wide and 6cm deep. That'll look great crowded with figures. Of course they are unlikely to be compatible with other people's basing but that might not be an issue.

I agree that rear support is not always the best choice. It can help the front line hang on longer or ride out a fierce charge. But it can make an army narrow and if the front line is over-matched usually means you lose the supporting troops as well.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:24 pm

They are 80mm because few 28mm fantasy miniatures will fit on a 60mm frontage.

And, many of the figures were WHFB figures, which are mounted on 20x20 bases (making a frontage of 4 = 80mm). And, I doubt that I will ever be using these armies against any other miniatures.

But, yes, the extra 20mm a base does tend to make things a bit crowded. We really needed a 4x8 ft table, or a ping-pong table (5x9). But it's hard to get the right balance with the Elves' army being so small.

MB

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by grahambriggs » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:04 am

since the Elf army is small I should think your 7 foot table will be fine. Not wide enough to cover a 7 foot table is not much different to not wide enough to cover an 8 foot table.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:29 am

You would be surprised with the difference between a 7 ft and 8 ft table, when you take terrain into consideration.

It can mean the difference between one and two BGs being able to fit into a gap.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by davekhan » Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:43 pm

MatthewB wrote:Maybe you should be paying attention to the number of bases, and not the number of BGs.

That is 116 bases (most of them 80mm x 30mm), on a 7 x 4 table.

In approximately two ranks, that's 4.64 meters of frontage. Notice that a 7 x 4 table is a little more than 2 meters across (2.12 meters).

That makes for quite a tight fit for those "13 BGs" (not 12).

The number of BGs is not indicative of how crowded a table will be. One should look at the number of bases
Maybe you should have a bit of Common sense .Playing that many points on a 4 x 7 table using YOUR basing is A JOKE :lol: its like 15mm competition games being played on a 2 x 3 table and the comp are around 750pts let alone your 900pts armies you field .

MOST games are played with 15mm ON a 4 x 6 table with around 700 -750pts .

We find that playing 15mm 900pts on a 4 x 6 table is pushing it a bit ,In Fact I don't like to play my Mongols with no more than 800pts on a 4 x 6 table as they need room to move .

Your gaming sound likes its from the GW side lets just fill the board with troops and march up to each other as we wont worry about tactics .

ITS common sense IF YOUR ARMY DOES NOT FIT ON THE BOARD then
a) you have too many points for the table OR
b) your table is too small .

Dont panic MB two things can be done .
a)Get a bigger table say 12 x 5 if you want to play with your 900pts elfs/and not rebase your units .
b) play with 650- 700pts armies , and that's pushing it on your table with your basing as well
c) Bin the lot and start gaming in 15mm its cheaper in the long run. :)

hope this help you out a bit MB

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:38 am

Considering that the Elves' frontage was just a little over 4 feet, I think that the 4 x 7 table was fine. The Elves would have preferred a smaller area, such as a Thermopylae-like scenario.

The armies both fit fine on the table. You are the one who was insinuating that there was some vast expanse in which to maneuver, I simply pointed out that this wasn't the case.

Even if the miniatures had been based on 60mm frontages, the Goblins would still have been crowded (116 bases at 60mm frontage is still around 3.5 meters of bases at a depth of 2 bases). 80mm is only 1/3 larger frontage.

You need to be doing this math before leaping to conclusions.

The Goblins were not so horribly cramped that they couldn't move, but they did have problems negotiating the terrain (which should be a problem for any mass army that depends upon large numbers of cheap troops). The addition of another foot to the width of the table wasn't going to make that much difference.

As I said: Any army that has a mass of cheap troops is going to be crowded.

This happens with other game systems as well (see what happens with Numidian or Parthian Armies in DBM on the regulation tournament 4 x 5 tables, and the tournament 800 - 1000 point armies).

I don't seem to be the one who is panicking. Things worked out well, the games turned out as we expected, and it didn't turn into a slaughter for one side or the other, nor was it impossible for one side or the other.

MB

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by davekhan » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:19 pm

MatthewB wrote:Even if the miniatures had been based on 60mm frontages, the Goblins would still have been crowded (116 bases at 60mm frontage is still around 3.5 meters of bases at a depth of 2 bases). 80mm is only 1/3 larger frontage.

Yes so you are playing on a TOO small a table for the points you are using !

MatthewB wrote:You need to be doing this math before leaping to conclusions.
it aint maths its common sense you are playing 25mm games on a 15mm board with a 100++ points add on to the game as well , the poor orc player dose not have room to swing a goblin (NOT that you have any in your army any way !) let alone a Orc .
MatthewB wrote:And the Superior Orcs don't need to charge the Knights. All they need to do is charge something that is close enough for the knights to intercept. Seeing as the Elves have a lot of room to maneuver, it isn't difficult to set it up to draw troops into positions where one can take advantage of such things (either that, or have them charge a foot group that will hold for at least a turn, and then maneuver to charge the Morgul Uruks in the flank or rear - rear would be hard to do, but less difficult to get to the side). Fortunately, I didn't have to worry about it, as the Orcs helped by charging into another unit, and were met by the Knight in Interception. The Orcs still count as charging, either way, and cannot use their support shooting."
I find it very hard for a small army of 7 b.g elf ( not sure if it is 7or 8 units you have for 900pts ) to out manoeuvre a 13 b.g of orcs you must tell me how you do it in 2 battles .Does the orc player know about flank marches or does that not happen in your games .I would of hoped that the orc could of gone round the ELF flanks /rear as there are more of them to do it ,
MatthewB wrote:The Orcs still count as charging, either way, and cannot use their support shooting."
Can you tell me whats the point in having impact foot with bow bases in them IF YOU CANT USE THEM surely it would be better to have them as
MED foot ,av LT spear ,swordsmen and then your bow chaps that way they can stand back and fire and not charge in all the time.

90% of the time you want impact foot to get stuck in so WHY have 1/3 of them with bow it just dose not make gaming sense.
MatthewB wrote:This happens with other game systems as well (see what happens with Numidian or Parthian Armies in DBM on the regulation tournament 4 x 5 tables, and the tournament 800 - 1000 point armies).
YES BUT that's in 15mm not your 25mm stuff AND

Not sure that players play DBM on a 4 x 5 with 800-1000 pts That's a lot of figs/base to put on a table of that size As standard AND I think you would be hard pressed to finish a game of that size in 3-4 hours for a tournament .
We usually play on a 4 x 6 table with 700 to 800 pts ( you can get a result in 3-4 hrs ) at are club and other clubs that I have played at,The shows I go to always look like 4x 6 as that's the size of a two craft tables over here .but hay I have never got my tape out and measured up the table as I just took it as the norm .

I find that when you do play 800- 1000pts you have to max on all your stuff to get the points up and that's have the fun of the game/rules ! :) what do I take and what do I leave out of this game :? So I like to play around 700 - 800pts it gets your opponent thinking of what you have and what he needs to counter your troops.

happy gaming DK

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