UNdead ?

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davekhan
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UNdead ?

Post by davekhan » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:27 pm

Hi Lads .
How do you play with undead B.G

We are toying with the ideal that they don't break and route they just stand and fight and have to auto break instead .yes they can get disrupted and fragmented BUT not route ?

which is a PLUS :) BUT on the DOWN side they have to roll ALL death rolls on the dice as ALL hit count ! so a draw or a win does not get them a +2 on the dice :D

this has to be play tested more as we only have 1 or 2 B.G of undead , Not to sure If this would work with a whole army of undead :? but it work ok when a Magic user summons up a undead B.G in are games so far ..

would like any feed back on this or how you play your Undead chaps ..

happy gaming DK

eldiablito
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Re: UNdead ?

Post by eldiablito » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:59 am

Undead can "break" and run. I seem to recall a certain Army of Darkness where the skeletons flee when their general was blown up. :wink:

Also, owe could take a page from older rules from GW. I recall from the 4th edition days when a unit could evaporate when losing a leadership test. To simulate this in FOG, the unit does NOT go down cohesion levels, but loses an extra stand every time it fails a test. Let me explain with an example: a unit of 8 defensive spear (skeletons) charges 8 average longbow. The longbow unit inflicts 6 hits and the skeletons do 3 hits in return. So, the skeletons lose 1 stand automatically. Then they take a cohesion test and lose. Now the skeletons lose an additional stand. In melee, the skeletons now have 6 stands to the 8 longbow.... If this works, then great. Otherwise, a different mechanic could be: the the cohesion test could determine HOW MANY skeletal troops are removed. So in the above example, the skeletons test at -3. If the skeletons roll a 6, then they lose another 4 troops (7+3-6=4). So, the 8 skeleton BG would lose 4 total stands and thus be down to 4 stands total (but don't route).

Just 2 mechanics that stay aligned with the current FOG rule system.

davekhan
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Re: UNdead ?

Post by davekhan » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:54 pm

eldiablito
Don't go down the dark side please with gw . :D

I like the thought about the leader getting killed in combat and the B.G auto breaks :D and maybe the whole allied cmd /B.G will drop a lvl ?

JorgenCAB
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Re: UNdead ?

Post by JorgenCAB » Sun May 18, 2014 11:06 am

I devised the following rules for a list with Undead...

* Undead units that is lowered to "Broken" cohesion status receive a stand loss instead and remain Fragmented.
* No Undead unit can have a quality above average and should be about one level below their equivalent living version.
* Undead has an auto breaking point as if they are Superior.
* Any Undead unit that is not within Command range and in Command Line treat ALL simple maneuvers as if they were a COMPLEX maneuver , complex maneuvers become IMPOSSIBLE.
* Undead deduct -3 on the death-roll for all missile attacks and get +1 on all CT from missile fire and must receive hits to roll a CT, Undead are not scared of fire-arms or artillery.
* Undead will never charge without order and is not effected by such psychology that other shock troops is.

I hoped that these pros and cons would even out in the end so the cost of the models remained the same.

SirGarnet
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Re: UNdead ?

Post by SirGarnet » Sun May 25, 2014 9:29 pm

One could say that Undead are sustained by the necromancer who raised them, so as their animating force, the only morale involved is his. Whether they fight to the last or lose necromantic cohesion at an autobreak point can both work.

Physical cohesion is the other angle. Do we posit that Undead of the same unit are under perfect control and coordination and therefore essentially "drilled" or that they are still individuals and fight in a more irregular or at least poorly coordinated fashion?

What, then, reduces their physical cohesion and combat effectiveness? In the first case, being out of command range might have serious consequences. In the second case, maybe not.

Whether archery, firearms, or melee weapons can disable or destroy undead depends on what animates them and how that can be disrupted. A cannonball, musket shot, arrowhead, blade, or blunt instrument - all can break a bone, damage connective tissues, or disarm, but what is enough to take an Undead out of action? There could be many answers on this point.

Unless tied to a certain fantasy world to which one must remain faithful, I think the logical approach is to decide what is fun and feels right, with a turn toward dramatic elements rather than simply attrition, and then come up with a rationale.

As I mentioned in prior discussions, I think modders are wise to coopt existing mechanisms rather than invent new ones where possible. Enabling a re-roll (or a re-roll of a failed re-roll), or adding or reducing dice, is a nice way of representing magic, heroic actions, leadership, disrupted conditions, etc., it works smoothly within the game mechanisms, and odds curves on re-rolls are I think nicely done.

BenMetson
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Re: UNdead ?

Post by BenMetson » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:52 am

Just a quick though to add to this. I think that undead should drop in cohesion, because it doesn't just represent their morale, but also the cohesion of their formations and therefore combat effectiveness. You have to remember that FOG scale includes several small things happening to units inside a BG and bundles them together into the Cohesion Test, formations can divide and move too far whilst others are being held up. And undead are not so fast at reacting to such problems.
Also if a BG if undead spearmen or pikemen couldn't drop cohesion I would field it in deep ranks and never have to worry about losing my spearmenness. There are also instances where units lose cohesion without taking a test, such as breaking off cav, would undead be affected by that?
Ben Metson

ravenflight
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Re: UNdead ?

Post by ravenflight » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:52 pm

Personally, I like the idea of making undead quite tough, but requiring a general (mage) to fight in the front rank. If the commanders dies, the unit instantly 'autobreaks'.

I'd make them drilled, as they are fighting as a unit like no legion ever did... under the mind control of a single entity.
Whatever weapons that they can use would be ok, but I wouldn't make them particularly effective. No better than 'average' because having the mage controlling all of the undead to fight as a unit would take a lot of effort let alone concentrating on individual skill and prowess. OH - quick thought... have them act as 'Average' for a Troop Commander, 'Superior' for a Field Commander and 'Elite' for a 'Inspirational Commander'??? (Thoughts).
I would make them autobreak purely because the commander in this situation has to fight in the front rank, and would be starting to think of his own skin if the unit got too small... so would get the hell out of dodge (only game mechanism for this is autobreak and hope you don't get caught in pursuit).
I would allow them to be disrupted and fragmented for the same reason as Ben said.
Armour wise, I'd consider that the armour may not literally be armour, but magical ability to keep on fighting even when limbs are lost etc. So, a Heavily Armoured skeleton formation may just be bones, but unable to be destroyed until they are down to nothing. An unprotected skeleton formation may be able to have its bodies destroyed by a simple slash.

Just some thoughts.

BenMetson
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Re: UNdead ?

Post by BenMetson » Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:44 am

One more quick thought to add to this is that cohesion tests do in part take into account morale in the BG, so maybe undead should get a modifier to these to represent their total uncaring attitude towards death. Maybe always counting as having their flank secure and having rear support?

ravenflight
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Re: UNdead ?

Post by ravenflight » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:55 pm

BenMetson wrote:One more quick thought to add to this is that cohesion tests do in part take into account morale in the BG, so maybe undead should get a modifier to these to represent their total uncaring attitude towards death. Maybe always counting as having their flank secure and having rear support?
Yeah, something like that would be ok... doing the FoG:R self supporting Tercio type thing. I wouldn't go TOO crazy with it though because as you say an undisruptable Pike formation that's deep enough... well, it's unstoppable!

Actually, going back to my average/Superior/Elite comment, maybe they should be poor/average/superior, just so that you don't get elite undead!

I like the idea of undead being uncaring, but it also has to not be a game breaker. A part of cohesion (for example in pike and spear) is the ability to reform to take into account casualties. That (I feel) would be just as hard for undead as the living, so a bonus, sure, but keeping it to a single plus, or negating a negative... maybe they ignore the 'received more hits than inflicted' -ve, or as you say, self supporting.

BenMetson
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Re: UNdead ?

Post by BenMetson » Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:17 am

I was of two minds whether they should ignore one of the hit modifiers for cohesion tests ( such as 2 more received than inflicted) on the one hand they are uncaring towards the casualties, on the other it does in part represent the inroads made by the enemy into their formation.

lawnranger
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Re: UNdead ?

Post by lawnranger » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:55 pm

Hi JorgenCAB
I like your take on the undead rules very interesting must give it a go next time we play :D

MatthewB
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Re: UNdead ?

Post by MatthewB » Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:27 am

Thread necromancy for the undead.

What kind of undead makes a big difference.

Most undead is going to be immune from some aspects of morale, and thus maybe some sort of resistance to cohesion tests might be called for.

But different forms of undead are going to respond differently.

First, you have the issue of motive force.

What is the motive force of the Undead?

Are they under the direct control of a Necromancer, who has raised them, and must concentrate in order to keep them going?

Or are they the product of a curse, which drives them even in the absence of a controlling general?

Or maybe they are driven by a curse, but this curse is attached to a magic item that gives the weilder of that item control over the undead?

There are obviously other motive forces that could be driving the undead.

Second, you have the varieties of undead:

• Skeletons come immediately to mind as the most common.
• Ghouls and Zombies (often confused for one another) would be the next most common. Zombies will eventually turn into skeletons if their decay progresses far enough.
• Ghosts, Wights, and Wraiths are next. These tend to have their own "brain" or "mind" even if, such as in the case of ghosts, some sort of spell or curse is required to summon them.
• And of course, the Kings of the Undead: Vampires and Liches. Once "created," these can go on to raise and control other undead.

Each of these classes of undead will have different capabilities.

Skeletons, ghouls and zombies tend to be your basic undead foot-troops, but their morale is probably mediated by a Necromancer of controlling general (so their morale cohesion tests might be easier to pass than normal living troops).

Ghosts, Wights, and Wraiths will probably have some sort of fear Attack in addition to any physical attack. So opponents might have to make a cohesion test simply to receive a charge from these. The same would be true of Vampires and Liches, if such a thing as a "unit of Liches" existed.

These are just random thoughts for the Undead.

On another note:

It is really sad to see FoG having declined in popularity so much.

MB

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