Lists I would still like to see

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Eques
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Lists I would still like to see

Post by Eques » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:42 pm

These are missing lists that immediately jump out at me:

Dark Age Greece
Pre-Phillipic Macedonia/Thessaly
Pannonia
Pre-Republican Rome (or early Italian)
Bronze Age Celtic
Neolithic Europe
Celtiberian (I think they should have their own list)
Tribal Balkan (700-300 BC)

Might have a crack at some of them myself. Don't know much about Pannonia but they were a major enemy of Rome that threw Augustus' reign into crisis. Apparently modelled themselves on the legions.
Last edited by Eques on Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LambertSimnel
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Post by LambertSimnel » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:56 pm

Is there a list for the Muslim conquest of Iberia and the Poitiers campaign? The Andalusian list says that it starts in 750.

ethan
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Post by ethan » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:48 pm

LambertSimnel wrote:Is there a list for the Muslim conquest of Iberia and the Poitiers campaign? The Andalusian list says that it starts in 750.
I think the Umayyad list covers those armies.

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Post by peterrjohnston » Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:53 pm

An Arabo-Aramean list (Nabbatean, Hatrene, etc) is missing.

No idea of the County and then Duchy of Savoy has a list, I would guess something between French and Condotta.

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Post by paulburton » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:46 am

Dark Age Greek

True - nothing between the Trojan wars and classical - Classical with none of the options would probably give a reasonable approximation (possibly without armoured options and allowing some chariots - Possibly use Kyrenean without the Libyan options.

Thessalians - Classical Greek

Early Macedonians - Maybe go with the Thessalian option of Classical Greek since the Macedonians favoured cavalry, this also gives lots of Javelinmen to fight in the mountains. Maybe allow more Paphlagonian foot.

Pannonia

Usually assumed to be part of the llyrian peoples. Some of the Danubian tribes were of Thracian origin and there were a few acian tribes south of the Danube so use one of these lists. Not sure about the 'Legions' idea. All of the sources I have come across have nothing to say on their organisation. Once they become a province late in Augustus' reign then the revolting armies become Roman.

Early Italians

Hill tribes would probably be a good approximation for the earlier period. With Trojans for Aeneas if you want to play something Vergillian.

Bronze Age Northern Europe

Agree nothing currently available but a chariot based Gallic army would give a pretty fair approximation

Neolithic

Probably difficult to fit in as the period really begins with the Bronze Age. You could use 'Early Highland Raiders' from Lost Scrolls. Not intended for this area but probably a tolerable approximation if you leave out the Chariots. Another possibility is to use one of the Blood and Gold Lists as representative of the troop types. Possible base lists are Pre-Classical Mayan or Hatun-Colla.

Balkan

The Balkans are covered by the Illyrian and Thracian lists. Most other peoples are treated in much the same way by the Greek and Roman sources.

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Post by LambertSimnel » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:14 am

ethan wrote:
LambertSimnel wrote:Is there a list for the Muslim conquest of Iberia and the Poitiers campaign? The Andalusian list says that it starts in 750.
I think the Umayyad list covers those armies.
Ah yes. I had thought that it wouldn't work for Iberian armies because it couldn't field enough Berbers, but looking at it again I noticed that it can get a bunch more as allies.

In that case I change my 'vote' to pre-classical Indians.

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Post by peterrjohnston » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:06 am

For early Italians, there's the Villanovan period, and then the early period under Greek influence. Neither has a list.

Also no early Indian covering the Vedic and before period.

The Habsburg forces in the Swabian Wars are covered by Medieval German City Leagues. I've no idea if the Three Leagues* are covered by the main Swiss list though.


* The League of God's House, the Grey League and the League of the Ten Jurisdictions from the Grissons, who weren't part of the Old Swiss Confederacy and were pretty much constantly fighting the Habsburgs and Bishop of Chur.

Eques
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Post by Eques » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:10 pm

Thanks PaulBurton.

On Dark Age Greece I would use warriors maybe with light spear or sword and impact capability to differentiate them from hoplites, which only developed in the 600s BC. Would also give them more cavalry as, according to Phillip Sidnell's "Warhorse", cavalry only declined with the advent of democracy when it became unfashionable for nobles to be given pride of place on the battlefield. Would give them poor slingers, javelinmen and levies to represent citizens unable to afford the full panoply and also the option of families acting as a mob (assuming a savage, nomadic type of warfare for the period).

Did Thessalians and Macedonians use home-grown hoplites?

On Pannonia looks like your right! I was half remembering something I had read in a book about Augustus.

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Post by Horseman » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:26 pm

From what I know about the Macedonians before Philips reforms they'd probably be better represented using a Thracian list but no horse archers, no heavy weapons and no offensive spear

Basicly armoured noble cav and swarms of medium foot

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Post by Ghaznavid » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:41 pm

peterrjohnston wrote:The Habsburg forces in the Swabian Wars are covered by Medieval German City Leagues. I've no idea if the Three Leagues* are covered by the main Swiss list though.

* The League of God's House, the Grey League and the League of the Ten Jurisdictions from the Grissons, who weren't part of the Old Swiss Confederacy and were pretty much constantly fighting the Habsburgs and Bishop of Chur.
I might be wrong but I think the differences are minor enough. Some think the three Leagues armies didn't have the same quality as 'proper' Swiss (so might not justify Superior) but personally I don't subscribe to that view. The one thing that is probably missing are a few bases of armoured halberdiers and I've my doubts that 4 strong Halberdiers BGs are appropriate for them as the three League Halberdiers (or at least some of them) were probably operating more independent of the pike Keils. But then the list does not force you to field the Halberds in 4 base BGs. ;)
Karsten


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Post by peterrjohnston » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:58 pm

Thought you'd reply :)

They fought well at Calven, so one would assume them to be the equal of the Old Confederacy, although they certainly needed their support in the war.

It's the closest to my local army, as they controlled Valtellina. Perhaps I should do a Three Leagues army... :)

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Post by MatteoPasi » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:16 pm

HIMO some more options in order to create different Condottieri's army or More Comunal Cityes wil be necessaries, at present Italian army for that period ar more or less always the same :)

Matteo

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Post by gozerius » Fri May 14, 2010 3:21 am

peterrjohnston wrote:An Arabo-Aramean list (Nabbatean, Hatrene, etc) is missing.

No idea of the County and then Duchy of Savoy has a list, I would guess something between French and Condotta.
As subjects of the Empire, I suggest Feudal German, and Late Medieval Feudal German. That way you get the Swiss allies that played a significant role in Savoyard armies
Thracians
Classical Indians
Medieval
-Germans (many flavors), Danes, Low Countries
Burgundians
In progress - Later Hungarians, Grand Moravians

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Post by peterrjohnston » Wed May 26, 2010 12:01 pm

Ghaznavid wrote: I might be wrong but I think the differences are minor enough. Some think the three Leagues armies didn't have the same quality as 'proper' Swiss (so might not justify Superior) but personally I don't subscribe to that view. The one thing that is probably missing are a few bases of armoured halberdiers and I've my doubts that 4 strong Halberdiers BGs are appropriate for them as the three League Halberdiers (or at least some of them) were probably operating more independent of the pike Keils. But then the list does not force you to field the Halberds in 4 base BGs. ;)
Just noticed Karsten. Swiss doesn't have halberdiers after 1490 AD. As you suggest the Three Leagues halberdiers probably operated more independently, does this means the Three Leagues have no appropriate list for the Swabian War?

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Post by Ghaznavid » Fri May 28, 2010 3:24 am

peterrjohnston wrote:
Ghaznavid wrote: I might be wrong but I think the differences are minor enough. Some think the three Leagues armies didn't have the same quality as 'proper' Swiss (so might not justify Superior) but personally I don't subscribe to that view. The one thing that is probably missing are a few bases of armoured halberdiers and I've my doubts that 4 strong Halberdiers BGs are appropriate for them as the three League Halberdiers (or at least some of them) were probably operating more independent of the pike Keils. But then the list does not force you to field the Halberds in 4 base BGs. ;)
Just noticed Karsten. Swiss doesn't have halberdiers after 1490 AD. As you suggest the Three Leagues halberdiers probably operated more independently, does this means the Three Leagues have no appropriate list for the Swabian War?
Hmm, probably yes.
Karsten


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Prussian Confederation of the 13 Year's War

Post by peterrjohnston » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:16 pm

An alliance of various cities in Prussia against the Teutonic Order, from 1454–66 AD. Also allied with the Polish.

I don't think there's a list for this. Perhaps very easy to do by amending Medieval German City Leagues (Northern) to have a Later Polish ally from 1454–66 AD, or, given the respective force sizes, more likely giving Later Polish a Northern Medieval German City Leagues ally from 1454–66 AD.

Karsten? :)

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Post by Legionbuilder » Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:45 am

Those sound neat - I could get into painting some of those
Prussian knights

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Post by dreiling » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:59 pm

Here are two more I don't think that are covered in the current 13 volumes:
  • Volga Bulgars
    Thai/Siamese

jlopez
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Post by jlopez » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:00 am

Eques wrote:
Did Thessalians and Macedonians use home-grown hoplites?
Thessalians yes. Early Macedonians, no. The latter didn't have them but you could probably squeeze in one BG of mercenary hoplites or a contingent from one of the coastal cities. Dodgy but possible. I'd probably go for:

All undrilled

Nobles HC, armoured, lance, sword, superior 4-8 bases
Lowland levy MF, protected, light spear, poor 32-however many bases you can be asked to paint.
Upgrade Lowland to Highland levy MF, protected, light spear, average 0-32 bases
Javelinmen LF, unprotected, light spear, javelin, average 0-32 bases
Archers LF, unprotected, bow, average 0-8 bases
Slingers LF, unprotected, slins, average 0-8 bases
Mercenary or allied coastal city hoplites HF, armoured, offensive spear, average 0-8 bases

Early Macedonian foot was crap relative to all its neighbours hence the light spear only armament. The levies from the highlands were presumably a bit more inured to war on the border hence the average status. Eight bases of cavalry is erring on the generous side and assumes all Macedonian nobles turned up. Illyrian, Thracian or even Thessalian allied contingents may be a possibility but no more than one.

Not much fun to play with to be honest but should replicate nicely Macedonia's battlefield expertise before Philip II.

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Post by nikgaukroger » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:55 am

jlopez wrote:
Eques wrote:
Did Thessalians and Macedonians use home-grown hoplites?
Thessalians yes. Early Macedonians, no. The latter didn't have them but you could probably squeeze in one BG of mercenary hoplites or a contingent from one of the coastal cities. Dodgy but possible. I'd probably go for:

IIRC one of the pre-Phillip II Makedonian kings did raise some hoplites - I think these were the original pezetairoi.
Nik Gaukroger

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