The Program

Forum for the discussion of the new Spike TV show that Slitherine worked on with Morningstar Entertainment.

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Sempai
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The Program

Post by Sempai » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:56 pm

Is it possible to get the program that is used to determine the wins? Or is that some secret kept, either way if available where can you get it? I'd like to run sims like that also, it seems..a good way to pass time and have fun with friends.

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Post by IainMcNeil » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:59 pm

I'm afraid the version created for Deadliest Warrior is confidential for Morningstar only. The closest thing available is our PC game THE HISTORY CHANNEL Great Battles of Rome, which is where some of teh core combat components come from for Deadliest Warrior. You can mod the data on your pc to try out different combat stats.

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Post by Sempai » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:23 am

thanks :D sounds good enough to me, was kind of looking forward to that though.. such an interesting concept, insanely cool. but yes, I will definately have to get that and give a run through on the CPU and whatnot. Grazi, friend :D

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Post by studmuffin » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:04 pm

Hehe thanks im going to have to try that!! :D

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Post by Kissaki » Fri May 01, 2009 4:19 pm

I would be interested in learning how the simulation works. How is armour factored in, weapons of various categories, morale, terrain, tactics, mounted/dismounted, etc. etc.?

Does the simulation take into account that some equipment and fighting styles were meant exclusively for formations, whereas other equipment might actually be a liability to a formation?

At any rate, a simulation is only as good as the number crunchers who provide the input, and from what I have seen I am not impressed. The weapons selections are often odd and sometimes completely wrong, and the fact that they mix ranged with melée is also bizarre. Furthermore, the way they test the weapons (how much damage it causes with a full-force blow) really doesn't tell you much about the weapon's effectiveness. It tells you nothing about balance, nor the sort of opponents it was intended for. Nor even how the weapon was used. Sure the katana cuts through a lot of meat and bone when stationary and cut in a fully powered overhead strike, but that is not how it was used. They did nothing to test thrusting or half-swording capabilities, nor did they even mention the tight-fitting grip of the viking sword and the implications thereof.

I may sound a bit cynical, but I have an inherent distrust of simulations. Skills and properties of equipment cannot be easily translated into cold numbers. In a computer game one balances the units according to what one already knows about their historical performance, by tweaking the numbers until it reflects what we know from historical evidence. It doesn't really sound suited to test who would be best, because the numbers only reflect what the programmer thinks of the situation. It is no substitute for hands-on experience, which has done away with many myths. I'm sure the show is good entertainment when watched with friends on a lazy night with beer and pizza, but it really has no scholarly value.

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Post by martin_00792 » Wed May 06, 2009 2:26 am

Kissaki wrote:I would be interested in learning how the simulation works. How is armour factored in, weapons of various categories, morale, terrain, tactics, mounted/dismounted, etc., etc.?

Does the simulation take into account that some equipment and fighting styles were meant exclusively for formations, whereas other equipment might actually be a liability to a formation?

At any rate, a simulation is only as good as the number crunchers who provide the input, and from what I have seen I am not impressed. The weapons selections are often odd and sometimes completely wrong, and the fact that they mix ranged with melée is also bizarre. Furthermore, the way they test the weapons (how much damage it causes with a full-force blow) really doesn't tell you much about the weapon's effectiveness. It tells you nothing about balance, nor the sort of opponents it was intended for. Nor even how the weapon was used. Sure the katana cuts through a lot of meat and bone when stationary and cut in a fully powered overhead strike, but that is not how it was used. They did nothing to test thrusting or half-swording capabilities, nor did they even mention the tight-fitting grip of the viking sword and the implications thereof.

I may sound a bit cynical, but I have an inherent distrust of simulations. Skills and properties of equipment cannot be easily translated into cold numbers. In a computer game one balances the units according to what one already knows about their historical performance, by tweaking the numbers until it reflects what we know from historical evidence. It doesn't really sound suited to test who would be best, because the numbers only reflect what the programmer thinks of the situation. It is no substitute for hands-on experience, which has done away with many myths. I'm sure the show is good entertainment when watched with friends on a lazy night with beer and pizza, but it really has no scholarly value.

I agree with what you have said...

But just playing devil's advocate here for a moment, on the show, there is what looks to be a sizeable Excel sheet when he inputs the data. It could just be that the show's producers use clips that are the most suited for a mid-twenties to early forties male (Spike TV's core audience).

Secondly, if the samurai would have access to his horse, the Viking would have been creamed... if the samurai fought like Carolingian Franks... but the reverse would be true if it were fought on the high seas...

Reminds me of a quote : Amateurs think in tactics, Masters think in terrain and logistics.

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Post by IainMcNeil » Wed May 06, 2009 8:34 am

The excel spreadsheet is the format we store the data in before the code reads it and outputs results. It's just a nice easy to use interface to the data.

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Post by Kissaki » Wed May 06, 2009 8:57 am

martin_00792 wrote:But just playing devil's advocate here for a moment, on the show, there is what looks to be a sizeable Excel sheet when he inputs the data. It could just be that the show's producers use clips that are the most suited for a mid-twenties to early forties male (Spike TV's core audience).
Oh, I'm sure that's the case. I don't know how much time they use on inputting all that data, but it would make for tedious watching. But I have yet to see someone able to quantify all relevant factors.

Secondly, if the samurai would have access to his horse, the Viking would have been creamed... if the samurai fought like Carolingian Franks... but the reverse would be true if it were fought on the high seas...
I'm not so sure. The vikings never fought on the high seas. Their idea of a sea battle was to latch a bunch of ships together in order to have a land battle, and this invariably took place along the coast. Their longboats were great vessels, but they weren't war ships.

It is also pertinent to ask "which samurai", though. The early samurai were horse archers, but their bows were quite weak. An early samurai on foot would probably choose the naginata in melée (on the battlefield, at least). Later samurai would use the yari, which became the samurai's battlefield weapon numero uno. And yet the show didn't even mention yari, but gave him the kanabo instead, of which there is NO record whatsoever that the samurai ever used.

Another thing the show did not take into consideration is that we have only one suit of maille and one helmet found from the viking age, which suggests that such items were exceedingly rare. A viking helmet would most likely be leather, and his armour most likely of wool or hides. Which would actually protect reasonably well against slashing weapons, but not against thrusts.

But this is getting way off track. Back on topic, though, I suspect the outcome on Deadliest Warrior is heavily influenced by the viewer votes/comments.

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Post by quelareine » Thu May 07, 2009 5:44 pm

cool post! very interesting!
simulation rachat de credit

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Post by Mark009 » Fri May 08, 2009 6:37 pm

Great post. Thanks for sharing.
simulation emprunt immobilier

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Post by mjwalshe » Fri May 08, 2009 9:09 pm

Kissaki wrote:
martin_00792 wrote:But just playing devil's advocate here for a moment, on the show, there is what looks to be a sizeable Excel sheet when he inputs the data. It could just be that the show's producers use clips that are the most suited for a mid-twenties to early forties male (Spike TV's core audience).
Oh, I'm sure that's the case. I don't know how much time they use on inputting all that data, but it would make for tedious watching. But I have yet to see someone able to quantify all relevant factors.

Secondly, if the samurai would have access to his horse, the Viking would have been creamed... if the samurai fought like Carolingian Franks... but the reverse would be true if it were fought on the high seas...
I'm not so sure. The vikings never fought on the high seas. Their idea of a sea battle was to latch a bunch of ships together in order to have a land battle, and this invariably took place along the coast. Their longboats were great vessels, but they weren't war ships.

It is also pertinent to ask "which samurai", though. The early samurai were horse archers, but their bows were quite weak. An early samurai on foot would probably choose the naginata in melée (on the battlefield, at least). Later samurai would use the yari, which became the samurai's battlefield weapon numero uno. And yet the show didn't even mention yari, but gave him the kanabo instead, of which there is NO record whatsoever that the samurai ever used.

Another thing the show did not take into consideration is that we have only one suit of maille and one helmet found from the viking age, which suggests that such items were exceedingly rare. A viking helmet would most likely be leather, and his armour most likely of wool or hides. Which would actually protect reasonably well against slashing weapons, but not against thrusts.

But this is getting way off track. Back on topic, though, I suspect the outcome on Deadliest Warrior is heavily influenced by the viewer votes/comments.
well mail doesnt last well in wet climates which is why we dont have that much left and i suspect that a samuri army might not have done well against a viking sheild wall you cant realy take armys out of context and i dont think samuri armour ever got the to standard of the late medievil period.
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Post by Kissaki » Fri May 08, 2009 9:53 pm

mjwalshe wrote:well mail doesnt last well in wet climates which is why we dont have that much left and i suspect that a samuri army might not have done well against a viking sheild wall you cant realy take armys out of context and i dont think samuri armour ever got the to standard of the late medievil period.
The curious thing is that we do have helmets and suits of maille from the Merovingian period (or Vendel age as they say in Sweden), preceding the viking age, so corrosion is not a satisfactory answer to explain the lack of maille and helmets. In addition to this, iron production was at a peak during the viking age, so you would expect more metal armour, not less. Granted, most viking swords were imported Frankish swords, and it is not unreasonable to assume that metal armour would be import goods as well.

As for samurai armours, early yoroi were boxy and rather unwieldy, and heavy in spite of being composed mainly of light materials. This is because even though the armour components themselves were light, there was a lot of it. The newer do-maru suits of the Sengoku jidai offered a lot more flexibility, while offering the same or better protection. These were of lamellar construction, with considerable use of metal. Some daimyo also had European plate incorporated into their armour, and in at least one case a morion type helmet as well, from trade with the Portugese.

As for taking armies out of context, you are quite right. In an actual confrontation between armies, both would have had a combined arms element of melée and archers. But I do not think the viking shield wall would compensate for their general lack of armour, especially since the Japanese would use arrows and spear walls to face them. The shield will confer a significant advantage, but how significant is rather speculative.

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Post by mjwalshe » Sat May 09, 2009 9:32 pm

Kissaki wrote:
mjwalshe wrote:well mail doesnt last well in wet climates which is why we dont have that much left and i suspect that a samuri army might not have done well against a viking sheild wall you cant realy take armys out of context and i dont think samuri armour ever got the to standard of the late medievil period.
The curious thing is that we do have helmets and suits of maille from the Merovingian period (or Vendel age as they say in Sweden), preceding the viking age, so corrosion is not a satisfactory answer to explain the lack of maille and helmets. In addition to this, iron production was at a peak during the viking age, so you would expect more metal armour, not less. Granted, most viking swords were imported Frankish swords, and it is not unreasonable to assume that metal armour would be import goods as well.

As for samurai armours, early yoroi were boxy and rather unwieldy, and heavy in spite of being composed mainly of light materials. This is because even though the armour components themselves were light, there was a lot of it. The newer do-maru suits of the Sengoku jidai offered a lot more flexibility, while offering the same or better protection. These were of lamellar construction, with considerable use of metal. Some daimyo also had European plate incorporated into their armour, and in at least one case a morion type helmet as well, from trade with the Portugese.

As for taking armies out of context, you are quite right. In an actual confrontation between armies, both would have had a combined arms element of melée and archers. But I do not think the viking shield wall would compensate for their general lack of armour, especially since the Japanese would use arrows and spear walls to face them. The shield will confer a significant advantage, but how significant is rather speculative.
well from the sagas the later vikers where similar to Huscarls in theer kit and I was realy comparing samuri amour vs the later 350 400 moh hardness that the late plate amour reached.

That was always the problem i had with the 13th warior film Kings Elite vs Stonae age weapons fire hardened sticks vs Steel Ace "Game Over Man Game Over"
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Post by caramel1982 » Sun May 10, 2009 8:02 am

This is a very nice game. This is the game that I always see in the Internet Shop. I haven't played it though but I am planning to try it.

Simulation pret immobilier

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Post by kdods22402 » Fri May 15, 2009 6:12 pm

Kissaki wrote:I would be interested in learning how the simulation works. How is armour factored in, weapons of various categories, morale, terrain, tactics, mounted/dismounted, etc. etc.?

Does the simulation take into account that some equipment and fighting styles were meant exclusively for formations, whereas other equipment might actually be a liability to a formation?

At any rate, a simulation is only as good as the number crunchers who provide the input, and from what I have seen I am not impressed. The weapons selections are often odd and sometimes completely wrong, and the fact that they mix ranged with melée is also bizarre. Furthermore, the way they test the weapons (how much damage it causes with a full-force blow) really doesn't tell you much about the weapon's effectiveness. It tells you nothing about balance, nor the sort of opponents it was intended for. Nor even how the weapon was used. Sure the katana cuts through a lot of meat and bone when stationary and cut in a fully powered overhead strike, but that is not how it was used. They did nothing to test thrusting or half-swording capabilities, nor did they even mention the tight-fitting grip of the viking sword and the implications thereof.

I may sound a bit cynical, but I have an inherent distrust of simulations. Skills and properties of equipment cannot be easily translated into cold numbers. In a computer game one balances the units according to what one already knows about their historical performance, by tweaking the numbers until it reflects what we know from historical evidence. It doesn't really sound suited to test who would be best, because the numbers only reflect what the programmer thinks of the situation. It is no substitute for hands-on experience, which has done away with many myths. I'm sure the show is good entertainment when watched with friends on a lazy night with beer and pizza, but it really has no scholarly value.
I just want to throw this in real quick because I really enjoy reading about all of the stuff you guys know about the different cultures and variables :D
It seems to me that the software Slitherine created was not specifically designed for the use on the Deadliest Warrior. Max Geiger mentions that he often must calibrate different variables and input special algorithms. This is because the software was most likely designed only for modern warfare. If someone is shot in a specific place on the body with a certain caliber of ammunition from a given distance, we can tell almost precisely what that wound will be like. Using melee and special weapons from days past, it will be inaccurate due to the lack of understanding of what those weapons will do. Naturally, the computer can calculate numbers; not specific the level of martial arts training or environmental immunity a person may or may not have. It might be able to compute a person's agility or reflexes, but only to some extent.

What is this program definitely good? Input the number of people, their armor, their guns and ammo, advantages and disadvantages, and the physics calculations for all of those previous stats and I am positive the computer can say how accurately the battle will turn out. People can debate because of the soldiers emotions and training and various other factors, but I'm sure the program was only created to simulate as accurately as possible the outcome of the battle. Kudus to Slitherine. --K

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Post by Kissaki » Sat May 16, 2009 6:36 pm

kdods22402 wrote:I just want to throw this in real quick because I really enjoy reading about all of the stuff you guys know about the different cultures and variables :D
It seems to me that the software Slitherine created was not specifically designed for the use on the Deadliest Warrior. Max Geiger mentions that he often must calibrate different variables and input special algorithms. This is because the software was most likely designed only for modern warfare. If someone is shot in a specific place on the body with a certain caliber of ammunition from a given distance, we can tell almost precisely what that wound will be like. Using melee and special weapons from days past, it will be inaccurate due to the lack of understanding of what those weapons will do. Naturally, the computer can calculate numbers; not specific the level of martial arts training or environmental immunity a person may or may not have. It might be able to compute a person's agility or reflexes, but only to some extent.

What is this program definitely good? Input the number of people, their armor, their guns and ammo, advantages and disadvantages, and the physics calculations for all of those previous stats and I am positive the computer can say how accurately the battle will turn out. People can debate because of the soldiers emotions and training and various other factors, but I'm sure the program was only created to simulate as accurately as possible the outcome of the battle. Kudus to Slitherine. --K
If the software was based on Great Battles of Rome, it would seem it was not designed with modern warfare in mind. And again, no matter how comprehensive and accurate the simulator, it only reacts on the input given by the analysts. If the simulator be ever so great, then, the result only reflects the opinions of whoever runs it. And so far I'm afraid I am not altogether impressed with the "expert opinions" on Deadliest Warrior.

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Post by robhiengler » Tue May 26, 2009 11:20 pm

So the conclusion is this software is the biggest bunch of BS and Max Greiger (if thats even his real name) seriously the guy is a random actor picked for the part because the targeted demographic thinks thats what a computer geek looks like - I seriously doubt this guy went to community college let alone MIT. Just try and listen to the amount of BS that he comes up with just reminds me of the fat jewish kid off Superbad.

And come on has anyone even played "The History Channel: Great Battles of Rome"? I have and it is mediocre at best, personally I would like to know exactly how if their software is based on this game: two opponents bashing at each other with different weapons having different stats really qualifies as a scientific simulation.

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Post by warrior11 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:59 pm

pfff THE HISTORY CHANNEL Great Battles of Rome really guys


1:you can't us ninjas or other history warriors
2:you can not add a gun grenade or rocket launcher or chainsaw
3:you can't just watch the battle you play in it
and 4:your battles take place in only Rome not a urban city or a beach


so im sayin do i want to play THE HISTORY CHANNEL Great Battles of Rome



:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :roll:

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Post by warrior11 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:03 pm

also id like to see 1-1 or army fighting each other on my screen not play in the game

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Post by IainMcNeil » Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:22 am

The engine was modified for use in the show. It takes in to account hundreds of factors you may not be aware of from just playing it as most of the factors are not fed back visually. The game engine just simulates combat between individuals and then adds another layer on top which the show doesn't use related to formations, morale etc.

However it does rely on information being entered in the right way as with all computer programs garbage in = garbage out. The team seem to be doing a great job though as the show has some really interesting results.

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