The tortoise and the hare (War is over)

After action reports for Commander Europe at War.

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massina_nz
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The tortoise and the hare (War is over)

Post by massina_nz » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:59 pm

Well yes another AAR for me. I guess everyone's been reading Supermax's account so far (except me of course), so I will chip in from my side

My perception is that we both have two very different styles of playing, you can guess which character I am :D

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Guess an early full-on blitz is on the cards. France is now in the lap of the weather gods as it could easily fall before Christmas if FAIR weather abounds. It's not the pound-each-way early blitz I prefer, making sure I still take Poland on turn 2, it's the all-out low countries blitz

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With no luftwaffe in the east my poles are able to do some damage to the Boche. Hell Warsaw may last beyond turn 2.

Otherwise I do the normal 1 first turn moves. Except I don't prepapre a BEF to land in France.
Last edited by massina_nz on Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

massina_nz
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Turn 2

Post by massina_nz » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:15 am

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Poland holds out, but most of the remaining troops are cut-off from supply, not that it will matter much

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Belgium falls quickly. Note I put the FTR units on sentry duty as I didn't want them to intercept after the effectiveness drop.

The French high command now have a serious debate. The lead panzer is in a very precarious position and could easily be destroyed. Destroying it would negate several turns benefit of any early captitulation of France, from a PP persepctive. Or we could sit back and defend. I decide to put the whole French army at risk and....

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.....destroy it. I also start removing units from the Maginot line. At least eastern Med GARs have arrived in the south of France. I will probably lose some main French units next turn, unless I get bad weather.

I toss up what to do with BEF and decide they will not intervene, and gamble on getting poor weather for France to hold out. And save my PPS for the defence of Great Britain. This is despite some sage advice from other players. Damn tortoisees and their thick shells :D

Plaid
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Post by Plaid » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:50 am

Why no BEF? Fighting together with french looks to me like best application of this starting british forces.
Its just expendable infantry and mech, don't know why many players don't send BEF.
If axis player is agressive BEF allows to destroy tank or mech or something like, if he is conservatime and careful, it will slow him down for couple of turns.
But what good this units can do staying in britain?

rkr1958
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Post by rkr1958 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:54 am

Plaid wrote:But what good this units can do staying in britain?
Defend Britain. France is going to fall early. Very early. My assessment would be either Max will go for Sea Lion or an early invasion of Russia.

If he goes for Sea Lion, I'd hold as long as possible without throwing anyway the RN or RAF.

Plaid
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Post by Plaid » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:00 am

rkr1958 wrote:
Plaid wrote:But what good this units can do staying in britain?
Defend Britain. France is going to fall early. Very early. My assessment would be either Max will go for Sea Lion or an early invasion of Russia.

If he goes for Sea Lion, I'd hold as long as possible without throwing anyway the RN or RAF.
I doubht that this troops will survive more then a turn facing german stukas and invasion force. If Max goes for Sealion, it would be very early obviously - march-april.
So in france BEF together with french army can inflict casualties and slow down axis, in England it will only slow down...

On other hand I never tryed extensive anti-sealion british campaign with saving starting troops and building additional ground forces...Maybe works.

massina_nz
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Post by massina_nz » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:07 am

Plaid wrote:
rkr1958 wrote:
Plaid wrote:But what good this units can do staying in britain?
Defend Britain. France is going to fall early. Very early. My assessment would be either Max will go for Sea Lion or an early invasion of Russia.

If he goes for Sea Lion, I'd hold as long as possible without throwing anyway the RN or RAF.
I doubht that this troops will survive more then a turn facing german stukas and invasion force. If Max goes for Sealion, it would be very early obviously - march-april.
So in france BEF together with french army can inflict casualties and slow down axis, in England it will only slow down...

On other hand I never tryed extensive anti-sealion british campaign with saving starting troops and building additional ground forces...Maybe works.
Yep, that was my idea. to see what would happen if France fell early and the BEF weren't sent to France. Given my opponent's serious commitment to the early blitz by shifting the entire Luftwaffe westwards I thought the BEF would be sitting ducks in France and may not be that effective, especially without the Canadian air force as support.

Normally I do send a MECH or INF plus a GAR to France (like in every other game I've played as Allies) but knowing my opponents proclivity for Sealion, I've decided to defend Britain instead.

Plaid
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Post by Plaid » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:20 am

What do you think about building armour for britts? Together with 2 mechs it can destroy axis beachhead just after this troops landned. Destruction of both initial landed units can chill off most of players (paying 105 PPs to send 2 more units probably for same fate? Thanks, no), but unsure about Max - he is extremely persistent.
Never tryed all this things though, only thoughts. If Zechi had tank in our game, my sealion was not succesful, 95%, but it was late one, so...
Just keep in mind, while infantry mostly delays, armour can turn the tide.

schwerpunkt
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Post by schwerpunkt » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:25 am

Plaid wrote:What do you think about building armour for britts? Together with 2 mechs it can destroy axis beachhead just after this troops landned. Destruction of both initial landed units can chill off most of players (paying 105 PPs to send 2 more units probably for same fate? Thanks, no), but unsure about Max - he is extremely persistent.
Never tryed all this things though, only thoughts. If Zechi had tank in our game, my sealion was not succesful, 95%, but it was late one, so...
Just keep in mind, while infantry mostly delays, armour can turn the tide.
If Max is potentially going to land in May-June, then blocking a landing might be difficult for so long. An ARM defence might be worth considering as an alternative..... Especially if you can force him to land outside of his TAC coverage.....

massina_nz
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Post by massina_nz » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:33 am

schwerpunkt wrote:
Plaid wrote:What do you think about building armour for britts? Together with 2 mechs it can destroy axis beachhead just after this troops landned. Destruction of both initial landed units can chill off most of players (paying 105 PPs to send 2 more units probably for same fate? Thanks, no), but unsure about Max - he is extremely persistent.
Never tryed all this things though, only thoughts. If Zechi had tank in our game, my sealion was not succesful, 95%, but it was late one, so...
Just keep in mind, while infantry mostly delays, armour can turn the tide.
If Max is potentially going to land in May-June, then blocking a landing might be difficult for so long. An ARM defence might be worth considering as an alternative..... Especially if you can force him to land outside of his TAC coverage.....
I was definitely thinking of building MECHs not INFs. Bit nervous about building an ARM given it is suspectible to TACs, but it could work. The funniest thing for me is that after all the games I've played, I've never had to defend a Sealion

massina_nz
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Turn 3

Post by massina_nz » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:07 am

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Yep, most of the regular French army is vapourised and the RAF takes a beating.

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Now just GARs hold the front-line, another FAIR weather turn and they won't be there. Things look very grim here.

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Warsaw is knocked down to 4 steps, I re-inforce it back to 7 steps, it probably won't hold out.

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Canadian FTR leaves Halifax with two GARs in tow

joerock22
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Post by joerock22 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:20 am

Definitely a good idea not to send the BEF to France. They would not have slowed Max down much, and their loss would have basically guaranteed a successful Sealion. At least now you have chance to make Sealion very costly if he does decide to do it. You can garrison the coastal hexes and try to force Max to land troops beyond his air cover. If you can do that, then the RN can come into play. You must balance the desire to save England with the necessity of keeping the RN afloat. Not an easy task.

The most important thing against Max is to not get discouraged; I learned that one the hard way. He's the hare, so he's going to take off and run away and hide. Just keep plugging along as the tortoise, and you may eventually catch up to him. That's how I beat him the two times I did (I believe my record is 2-4). Just remember to keep your cool and stick to your game plan. Good luck!

massina_nz
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Post by massina_nz » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:05 am

joerock22 wrote:Definitely a good idea not to send the BEF to France. They would not have slowed Max down much, and their loss would have basically guaranteed a successful Sealion. At least now you have chance to make Sealion very costly if he does decide to do it. You can garrison the coastal hexes and try to force Max to land troops beyond his air cover. If you can do that, then the RN can come into play. You must balance the desire to save England with the necessity of keeping the RN afloat. Not an easy task.

The most important thing against Max is to not get discouraged; I learned that one the hard way. He's the hare, so he's going to take off and run away and hide. Just keep plugging along as the tortoise, and you may eventually catch up to him. That's how I beat him the two times I did (I believe my record is 2-4). Just remember to keep your cool and stick to your game plan. Good luck!
I'm guessing it's best to place the INF/MECH units in the cities and the GARs on the other landing hexes, key thing is not to give him a supply source, and GARs in cities don't last very long. I'll have to think long and hard on how I position my RN. Out of TAC range and not bottled up by u-boats?

zechi
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Post by zechi » Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:35 am

To reinforce the British main isle, you should send the GAR form Northern Ireland to the British mainland (costs 8 PP, you save 7 PP). In case of Sealion it is very unlikely that Supermax will notice that Northern Ireland is not guarded and even if he does, an Invasion is very unlikely until the main isle did not fall. If there is no Sealion, then you can easily transport a unit back to northern Ireland, perhaps even a small invasion force to invade the Republic of Ireland.

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Post by massina_nz » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:46 am

Thanks for all the advice guys

schwerpunkt
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Post by schwerpunkt » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:03 pm

massina_nz wrote:
I'm guessing it's best to place the INF/MECH units in the cities and the GARs on the other landing hexes, key thing is not to give him a supply source, and GARs in cities don't last very long?
GARs on the coast last even shorter if within TAC range. I think its best not to use GARs in the open or on the coast within TAC range, so some in cities is useful as it frees up your INF and MECHs to defend the open hexes or to counterattack....

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Post by harrybanana » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:11 pm

From my own limited experience defending against sealion ( 3 times now with 1.05 or 1.07) I offer the following tips:

1. It is generally best to defend the beaches rather than trying to counterattack his landing force. Ideally you try and cover every single possible landing hex. However, I try and keep my units away from the landing beaches (and pre-invasion bombarment) and rail or march them into location once you see his units in the sea adjacent to the coast.

2. If you can't reach a particular hex with a ground unit then fly a fighter or (if necessary) your bomber into the hex and place on sleep mode.

3. Try and place your Garrisons where he can only get a maximum of 1 shore bombarment on them. In one game I made the mistake of letting him get two shore bombarments and he was able to eliminate my unit with 2 TACs and the bombarments. But I think with just 2 TACs and 1 shore bombardment he would have to be very lucky to destroy your GAR.

4. If you can't cover all the beach hexes then you will have to at least try to do some damage to the enemy units that can get ashore using your fleet. Since he will probably be blocking your fleet with his subs your own sub is very useful for this.

5. Preinvasion place your BBs into the ports next to London and the channel, this way you can attack any adjacent units. Of course, he may attack these units for a few turns to soften them up prior to invading, so there is some risk.

6. I personally love investing in tech. But if you are expecting a sealion this is a big mistake. Save your pps, you will need them.

Goodluck.

massina_nz
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Post by massina_nz » Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:18 am

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FAIR weather again. 3 GARs eliminated, but the real problem with them is they can’t retreat that well. So I now focus on the last ditch defence of Paris, at least it's out of TAC range for the time being. Another FAIR weather turn (25% chance) and Paris may even fall. So I send the RAF and bomber unit to Brest and Bordeaux.

One thing I'm uncertian off is where to place my CV, it would be quite vulnerable if it is placed near London.

The HSF is spotted in Antwerp looks liek Sealion is on the cards, but not this year as there is no FAIR weather possibility after the next turn.

Oh, and Poland fell as well.
Last edited by massina_nz on Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by massina_nz » Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:21 am

joerock22 wrote:<snip> The most important thing against Max is to not get discouraged; I learned that one the hard way. He's the hare, so he's going to take off and run away and hide. Just keep plugging along as the tortoise, and you may eventually catch up to him. That's how I beat him the two times I did (I believe my record is 2-4). Just remember to keep your cool and stick to your game plan. Good luck!
Yes it's not like I've done anything stupid IMHO. If I hadn't attacked his lead panzer in Belgium or sent the BEF in I don't think the end result would have changed much.

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Post by harrybanana » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:56 pm

massina_nz wrote:One thing I'm uncertian off is where to place my CV, it would be quite vulnerable if it is placed near London.
Personally I like to put the CV into the Cardiff port. From here it can attack any German transports approaching the Southwest part of England, while still getting the +2 port defence. The disadvantage is that it can be easily trapped in this port, so if it looks like Cardiff is going to be captured soon you will have to make a hasty retreat before it is too late.

This proabably isn't the place for it, but I would like to comment on the low British manpower numbers at the begginning of the game. I assume the original purpose of this was to discourage the Allied Player from building lots of British INF and sending them to France. However, this is very ahistorical. The British lacked a lot of things in the early part of the war, but manpower was not one of them. In fact they had far more recruits then they could possibly arm. Added to this were all the expatriate Poles, Czechs, Dutch, Belgians, French, etc flooding into England from 1940 on. Even late in the war the British did not have a manpower problem, at least certainly not when compared with Germany and Russia. What they did have was a high command that was very concious of not taking heavy casualties. In any event, I don't think it is necessary any longer for the British to have artificially low manpower to start the game as I don't think very many Allied players will be flooding France with British units. They will need to save them for a potential Sealion.

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Post by zechi » Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:38 pm

harrybanana wrote: This proabably isn't the place for it, but I would like to comment on the low British manpower numbers at the begginning of the game. I assume the original purpose of this was to discourage the Allied Player from building lots of British INF and sending them to France. However, this is very ahistorical. The British lacked a lot of things in the early part of the war, but manpower was not one of them. In fact they had far more recruits then they could possibly arm. Added to this were all the expatriate Poles, Czechs, Dutch, Belgians, French, etc flooding into England from 1940 on. Even late in the war the British did not have a manpower problem, at least certainly not when compared with Germany and Russia. What they did have was a high command that was very concious of not taking heavy casualties. In any event, I don't think it is necessary any longer for the British to have artificially low manpower to start the game as I don't think very many Allied players will be flooding France with British units. They will need to save them for a potential Sealion.
I think this is actually quite good simulated, because the lack of manpower early in the game does not mean that there are not enough recruits, but only the quality of the recruits is not as good. Actually that was exactly the problem of the British Army. They fielded a small but professional army at the beginning of the war and could not quickly enlarge their army without a quality loss.

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