GS 2.00z beta AAR (no Zechi)

After action reports for Commander Europe at War.

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leridano
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Post by leridano » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:00 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:I think you're opening up Britain for Sealion by accepting such heavy UK losses and losing the corps and mech there. The Germans are now getting through. I wonder why you didn't retreat the British corps behind the river so it could escape. Repairing it means it will be destroyed next turn.

The Germans can accept such high losses while the British can't.
I have saved the british mech and garrison. Not sure about the fate of the british corps that has retreated to Rouen. Probably it will be destroyed on the next turn.

As Plaid has pointed, BEF has a double mission in France: to delay as much as possible german conquest of France and to come back to UK with the less losses the better. Sometimes it is difficult to achieve this so one objective excludes the other one.



    Blathergut
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    Post by Blathergut » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:43 pm

    leridano wrote:
    Stauffenberg wrote:I think you're opening up Britain for Sealion by accepting such heavy UK losses and losing the corps and mech there. The Germans are now getting through. I wonder why you didn't retreat the British corps behind the river so it could escape. Repairing it means it will be destroyed next turn.

    The Germans can accept such high losses while the British can't.
    I have saved the british mech and garrison. Not sure about the fate of the british corps that has retreated to Rouen. Probably it will be destroyed on the next turn.

    As Plaid has pointed, BEF has a double mission in France: to delay as much as possible german conquest of France and to come back to UK with the less losses the better. Sometimes it is difficult to achieve this so one objective excludes the other one.


      Did it really slow them down all that much?

      leridano
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      Post by leridano » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:10 am

      Turn 15. June 7, 1940. France surrenders. Italy joins the Axis.

      Paris attacked by all sides could not resist one more turn and was seized by the germans. BEF corps in Rouen was also eliminated so cannot be evacuated to UK.
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      In GS 2.00z it has been included a new modified casualties screen in which you can see statistics by number of steps lost and by number of units lost (parenthesis). This is by far, a more useful system to check your losses. So these are fall of France statistics of the game with the new casualties screen.

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      British this turn withdrawed RN units in English Channel to UK ports and disembarked evacuated BEF forces.

      One more thing to mention is that german subs, following the tempting arrows left by RN ships, pursued british damaged BB naval group near USA coast and this time they attacked british DD reducing it to 3 steps.
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      This forced this naval group to sail further south-east. This time the ships have almost no risks to be reached again by the german subs.




        leridano
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        Post by leridano » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:19 am

        massina_nz wrote:That's one thing I'm noticing about v2.0, Allied warships are very prone to u-boat attack, as I think the initial ASW values for the Allies have been reduced.
        I have also noticed this. And specially about british BB units. May be increasing initial british BB´s ASW factor from 2 to 3 could be the solution. British DD´s initial ASW factor at 4 is OK.


          massina_nz
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          Post by massina_nz » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:24 am

          No, I'm happy with the ASW values, I just think that as the Allies you have to be more careful with your warships.

          It'll be interesting to see how u-boats fare in '42 onwards
          Last edited by massina_nz on Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

          leridano
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          Post by leridano » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:31 am

          Blathergut wrote:Did it really slow them down all that much?
          BEF failed to destroy a german armoured unit but with a bit better luck they would have achieved it thus reducing a little german offensive strength.

          IMO, BEF is always is useful in France. Let´s keep in mind that zechi has had fair weather from february so without BEF forces covering left french flank Paris could have been captured in april or may.


            Peter Stauffenberg
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            Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:43 am

            The fall time of France is normal when starting in February 28th 1940. So the BEF didn't halt the Germans. One reason is that counter attacks means a faster destruction of the Allied units. The Germans bleed too and if you can inflict enough damage you might prevent Sealion and disrupt build-up for Barbarossa.

            The initial BB ASW value of 2 is the same as before. We haven't altered the initial values at all. What's changed is a slightly slower gain of ASW. But at ASW tech 3 the subs have ASW strength of 7 and that's fine against the subs.

            The point is that the Allies can't afford to spread their navy in 1940. You need to keep them together so your flank units can be protected. One way
            of doing this is to use the French naval units in the most vulnerable positions. Sail some British naval units to western Med to patrol the Med so the French naval units can be freed.

            Leridano decided to use a portion of the navy in the English channel for shore bombardment etc. That weakened his other naval task force. So when met with a 3 sub wolfpack you will see the escorts attacked. Still you should be able to run away from the wolfpack quickly.

            One good thing about a wolfpack outside Halifax is that the Germans will probably NOT launch Sealion. They need their subs in the English Channel to protect the Kriegsmarine and they can't get back in time to be used in Sealion.

            Still, the Germans have achieved to seriously weaken the British. I have a feeling that Zechi wants to prevent the Canadian units from getting to Egypt. So an offensive from Libya is much more likely.

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            Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:49 am

            German total losses is: 393 PP's
            British total losses is: 319 PP's
            Delta is: 74 PP's and that is VERY VERY low.

            So based upon the initial data it seems the Germans got the best of the situation. The delta should be above 200 PP's before the Allies can be pretty happy about the situation. The British air losses are ok. Ground unit losses a bit high, but not a problem. It's the huge naval losses that will come and haunt Leridano later in the game. To repair these units he will have to delay building labs and that decision will bite him later.

            I don't care how France falls when I'm the Allies. I simply have to make sure the British get out of Case Yellow pretty much intact. I send the Canadian garrisons and use the British air units to help the French. The Royal Navy is used to get some convoys home with valuable PP's. If you save some PP's then you have a reserve if Sealion seems to be launched. If it was a false alarm you can spend these PP's on labs.

            If you have to spend the British PP's on repairs you can't have the reserve to get extra units in Britain in time for Sealion.

            I know it's tempting to try to kill German armor units, but usually I see an Allied front line in shambles in the games where they counter attack a lot. Forcing the Germans to attack will inflict maybe even more damage in the long run.

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            Post by Blathergut » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:55 am

            Interesting stuff! Looking forward to more of the AAR! Thanks for doing this! It's at least a partial "fix" until the version is released!

            Peter Stauffenberg
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            Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:04 am

            You can get a "complete" fix by becoming a beta tester. :)

            I usually have better success with the Allies by defending more forward. Try to use every hex behind the Meuse river. Defending behind the Oise (west of Meuse and south of Lille) is also good. One reason is that you protect the Lorraine resource better. Put a mech unit in the river bend.

            Many German players attack slowly in Belgium and that means the Allies can move forward near Lille and defend the left flank of the Schelde river as well. By doing this you force most German attacks to be across river.

            I like to defend the hex row in front of the river line with garrisons and put only corps units behind the river line. This means that the corps units won't be attacked until turn 3 of Case Yellow. Then they have recovered a bit and only one hexside can be attacked without a river crossing. So you slow down the Germans a bit or force them to take heavy losses.

            I like to use a corps unit in Lille with flanks protected so the Germans can't use it as a rail hub and I can use Lille to place reinforcements.

            By being very defensive and withdrawing from the east when the center is about crumble. You need to get your French units out of being cut off BEFORE they become so. Retreating a line to the next river line helps keeping most French units in play. Then the Germans must destroy these to get adjacent to Paris.

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            Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:10 am

            By defending properly you can get German losses high and with a fall date of June 27th (start in March 1940) without wasting any British corps units. Then the Germans are in a hurry to make Sealion. If you send the RN to UK in time for Sealion, but outside Luftwaffe range then you have a fair chance keeping the Germans at bay.

            It's frustrating for the Germans to be faced with an aggressive Allied player in France, but once Paris falls and you see the delta between German and UK losses then most German players smile and feel happy about the outcome. Crippling the UK means you can focus harder on Barbarossa with less fear of activity in the Med or a Dieppe raid.

            It's too early to tell what will happen next, but Zechi seems to have the initiative at the moment. June 7th conquest of Paris is early enough to compensate for getting 2 heavily depleted panzer units.

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            Post by Blathergut » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:18 am

            Ah, I would if I had time, but I offered for FoG PC Legions Triumphant beta and then FoG2 beta...plus work...plus become-a-better-teacher-course-that-drives-you-crazy-with-the-mountains-of-expected-work...

            But maybe, when March Break rolls around, if you are still in beta, I'll give it a try. FoG PC shouldn't last too long once it starts. The evil course is done by the start of March. So I will keep you in mind!

            leridano
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            Post by leridano » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:48 pm

            Turn 16. June 27, 1940.

            Sub german activity continued near Halifax with an allied transport being torpedoed.

            • Image
            As Borger has commented, this could mean that Sea lion probably will not be launched but I don´t discard it at all. I really fear a german invasion of Spain that really has pretty chances of success with enough time to do it and the british RN weakened. Another option could be Norway.

            Regardless of what the germans do in the next turns, the british are preparing for the worst of the scenarios: a german invasion of England. That´s why they have built 2 infantry corps that will be, along with repaired british mech, the main force to face an invasion. Meanwhile, much needed PP´s sail to UK this turn: one of them unescorted because of the lack of ships of the RN.
            • Image
            • Image



              Roberto
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              Post by Roberto » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:39 pm

              Historically can U-Boat patrol near Canada in 1940? :?:

              Rhialto
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              Post by Rhialto » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:14 pm

              Yes.

              The type VIIB had a range of 8,691 nautical miles. It was introduced in 1938.
              The Type VIIC had a range of 8,190 nautical miles. It was introduced in 1940.
              The Type IXA had a range of 19,425 nautical miles and all 8 built were commissioned by Nov. 1939.
              The Type IXB had a range of 22,200 nautical miles. The first one was launced in Sept. 1939.

              All three were thus available in 1940 (though in limited numbers for IXB).

              The sea distance between Kiel, Germany and Halifax, Canada is 3,484 nautical miles. (14 days at sea, traveling at 10 knots) according to:
              http://ports.com/sea-route/port-of-kiel ... ,%20Canada

              Admittedly, the type VIIs would have restricted cruising range on arrival, but this suggests close to 2000 miles for hunting, even without milchcow refueling (first type XIV was launced in 1941).

              leridano
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              Post by leridano » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:11 pm

              Turn 18. August 6, 1940. Germany invades Spain and Norway.

              Wehrmacht launched "Operation Isabella" and invaded Spain attacking a mountain border division.
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              Simultaneously, 2 german infantry corps landed in Norway and a parachute division attacked Oslo that had been bombed previously by Luftwaffe bombers.
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              As I foresaw, Zechi invaded Spain but what it was completely unexpected is that he was going to invade both Spain and Norway in the same turn. No use in reinforcing Oslo defenders because of the strong german air support in this campaign. Regarding to Spain, german forces seems to be a little bit tiny at the moment. On the other hand, spanish navy and a british sub that is operating in western Med waters did not detect any landing italian force in the Med to support the invasion. Anyway, is august and german forces have enough time to reach all-year-fair-weather zone in Spain.

              First thing spanish army did was to mobilize their elite moroccan troops that were inmediately embarked to Cadiz port. Also spanish corps in Seville was ordered to move to Madrid.
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              Nothing interesting happens in last turn (july 17, 1940; turn 17) so no post was made.

              About german subs threat it seems that they have choosen south convoy as their new "hunting" zone.
              • Image


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                Post by Plaid » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:12 am

                I guess all of us know, for what purpose axis go for Spain often. So place good british unit (corps/mech) into Gibraltar, add commander (low-cost +1 def suits perfectly I guess) and axis will have lots of *fun* sieging the fortress. It can be attacked only from 2 hexes, one of wich is cross-river. With new entrenchment rules its long (or forever, with good allied luck).

                leridano
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                Post by leridano » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:12 pm

                Turn 19. August 26, 1940. Norway surrenders. Egypt and Irak joins the allies.

                Norway surrenders as expected. A german garrison will replace the attacking forces. Probably Bergen will be also garrisoned.
                • Image
                In Spain, german forces did not progress much but they increased the number of units deployed in this scenario: Wehrmacht invasion force is formed by 3 infantry corps, 2 panzer corps, 1 mech and Rundstedt HQ. Air forces consist, at the moment, in 1 german fighter, 1 german tac and 1 italian tac.
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                Plaid give me a good advice but keeping in mind how dangerous are Atlantic waters with RN decimated, I fear that the mech/corps transported could not be properly escorted and probably might suffer some sub attacks that would reduce its strength thus arriving to Gibraltar with half strength. What I really intend to do soon is to occupy Canary islands with a british garrison brought from Middle East. It also could be good to occupy Spanish Morocco with Commonwealth/British units but I have more doubts about the usefulness of this last one operation.

                Spanish forces are in full mobilization mode and they pretend to form a good defensive force around Madrid with 4 infantry corps, 1 mech and several garrison units.
                Spanish air forces also are prepared and they might be reinforced on the following turns. Note that spanish corps at Barcelona has been evacuated to also participate in Madrid defense.
                • Image
                A minor naval battle occurred in El Ferrol naval base: both german sub and spanish DD lose 2 steps in this action.
                • Image
                British repaired some damaged units from battle of France (british CV among others) thus reducing their PP´s stockpile to negative values.




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                  Post by BuddyGrant » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:42 pm

                  leridano wrote: One of the added features of GS 2.00z is that after Belgium surrenders Canada mobilizes its forces resulting in one fighter unit at 8 steps directly deployed in UK and 1 mech and 1 corps deployed in Canada mainland. Although Canada was at war with Germany from september 1939, the canadians were not able to deploy a significant force in Europe until mid 1940, so GS team wanted to simulate this in the game.
                  Are these Canadian units England replacing the ones that started on the map (in Canada) in the last released version of GS?

                  Peter Stauffenberg
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                  Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:01 pm

                  The Canadian mech and corps will arrive near Halifax when Belgium surrenders instead of starting near Ottawa at the game start. The Canadian fighter will arrive near Liverpool when Belgium falls instead of starting near Ottawa. The Canadian garrisons will start in Quebec and Halifax at the game start.

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