Supermax-Moriss restart (Game stopped)

After action reports for Commander Europe at War.

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Plaid
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Post by Plaid » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:41 pm

I see that Morris have all convoys running without any intrediction. It means huge PP boost, also I believe USSR have ~130 native PP income.

There are probably lots of this soviet tanks and mechs deployed near frontline or in build queue.

Though you game going way better then my, you have PPs from Spain and have better chances to win this close fighting.
Still I can't understand this high tech level, Morris' troops have. If there is 100% way to have allied tech 1-2 levels higher then german in any single area by 1942, it is truly something unbalanced.

Plaid
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Post by Plaid » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:44 pm

supermax wrote: Damn i dont understand how he does it... It blows my mind away.

Russians at 11 millions cas, western allies also high cas...
He just shamelessly use the fact, that allies have ~3 times more PPs (with convoys) and 4-5 times more MP (and endless oil), then axis have.
If we add the fact that allies have tech parity or advantage somehow...

supermax
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Post by supermax » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:47 pm

Plaid wrote:I see that Morris have all convoys running without any intrediction. It means huge PP boost, also I believe USSR have ~130 native PP income.

There are probably lots of this soviet tanks and mechs deployed near frontline or in build queue.

Though you game going way better then my, you have PPs from Spain and have better chances to win this close fighting.
Still I can't understand this high tech level, Morris' troops have. If there is 100% way to have allied tech 1-2 levels higher then german in any single area by 1942, it is truly something unbalanced.
I agree. I am alrady struggling with high allied tech...

But also i noticed that moriss dint loose experience with his fighters in england. He replaired the fight with a 4 steps repair and didnt loose his 1 pts of experience. Tis was on 3 ftrs. Already sent the savegames to developpers for explanation

supermax
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Post by supermax » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:48 pm

Plaid wrote:
supermax wrote: Damn i dont understand how he does it... It blows my mind away.

Russians at 11 millions cas, western allies also high cas...
He just shamelessly use the fact, that allies have ~3 times more PPs (with convoys) and 4-5 times more MP (and endless oil), then axis have.
If we add the fact that allies have tech parity or advantage somehow...
Something is truly fishy here.

PionUrpo
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Post by PionUrpo » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:20 pm

Morris must be skipping General techs, apart from one lab. Can't really expected him getting so high tech without. He still has starting levels of organization for everyone? (Although since it's only mid '42 that might be the case even w/o skipping general labs.)

And the navy techs of course... RN still at (almost?) no tech I assume, how is the USN?
Last edited by PionUrpo on Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cybvep
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Post by Cybvep » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:22 pm

The main problem is the Allied offensive potential in 1942. IRL all they managed to do was to perform a limited offensive in North Africa, nowhere near the size of the in-game invasion of France. The Russians were on the defensive for the most of 1942, the Americans were mobilising their industry.

PionUrpo
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Post by PionUrpo » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:27 pm

Cybvep wrote:The main problem is the Allied offensive potential in 1942. IRL all they managed to do was to perform a limited offensive in North Africa, nowhere near the size of the in-game invasion of France. The Russians were on the defensive for the most of 1942, the Americans were mobilising their industry.
Pretty much this. If there was no constant largescale campaign on French beaches the Eastern Front would be looking quite reasonable right now.


Oh yes, how is the WAllied manpower btw?

Plaid
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Post by Plaid » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:53 pm

WA manpower deffinetely can allow you to build dozen of tanks/mechs/planes/ships without any problem.
They can't afford USSR-style large corps-based army, but with more expensive unit they can build really many.

PionUrpo
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Post by PionUrpo » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:05 pm

Plaid wrote:WA manpower deffinetely can allow you to build dozen of tanks/mechs/planes/ships without any problem.
They can't afford USSR-style large corps-based army, but with more expensive unit they can build really many.
Yeah, I know that. Just wondering since Morris is throwing them away like it's a firesale or something and I haven't tried it myself.

I was thinking, even though WAllies had overall edge in production/manpower they were never callous with people's lives in German/Soviet way. This doesn't really feel as these constant landings clearly show. Maybe cutting the MP pool would have some effect? I would still put the main problem on the too easy landing ops though...


Any chance for a casualties screen cap supermax?

Rhialto
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Post by Rhialto » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:37 pm

PionUrpo wrote:Morris must be skipping General techs, apart from one lab. Can't really expected him getting so high tech without. He still has starting levels of organization for everyone? (Although since it's only mid '42 that might be the case even w/o skipping general labs.)

And the navy techs of course... RN still at (almost?) no tech I assume, how is the USN?
And this problem is of course going to get worse for axis as the game goes into 1943 and 1944. Morris will max out his tank and air techs, and be able to sell his labs and buy new ones to repair his deficiencies, or even use the pp for even more units. Also, the game is so designed that as Axis techs in tanks and air increase, the upgrades create oil-thirsty units that deplete his limited oil reserves faster. The Allies don't care about this since they have unlimited oil and can upgrade as fast and hard as they like.

Morris is doing all this without even bothering to strategic bomb the synthetic oil plants. If he had done this - and I am pretty sure he had the resources - he already has air superiority in the West - Max would be out of oil by now.

Once Brest falls I think the situation in the West will go south pretty fast unless Max can somehow block the port with his subs to prevent arrival of reinforcements from the USA and Britain. And this is only autumn 1942!

Rhialto
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Post by Rhialto » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:42 pm

PionUrpo wrote:Morris must be skipping General techs, apart from one lab. Can't really expected him getting so high tech without. He still has starting levels of organization for everyone? (Although since it's only mid '42 that might be the case even w/o skipping general labs.)

And the navy techs of course... RN still at (almost?) no tech I assume, how is the USN?
I thought this version of GS that they are playing under already had the rule preventing skipping techs and juts buying labs in a few areas? Or is that just in the upcoming patch?

peterjfrigate
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Post by peterjfrigate » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:51 pm

Don't forget the cost of opportunity. For every STRAT there would have been about 2 mechs, a tank corps, or a TAC. Building even a couple STRATS for a bombing campaign takes away a lot of the tactical punch of a 41 or 42 invasion of France.

PionUrpo
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Post by PionUrpo » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:57 pm

Rhialto wrote: I thought this version of GS that they are playing under already had the rule preventing skipping techs and juts buying labs in a few areas? Or is that just in the upcoming patch?
I think they begun the game before the lab restriction was implemented although they have since updated.

Anyway, the system still allows for some tech prioritizing so my guess was that he has minimal investement on general.

Kragdob
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Post by Kragdob » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:42 pm

Schnurri wrote:Yes, if you get Baghdad you can rail. Be careful Morris doesn't cut you off from Damascus - he likes to move units out and rail in new units, assuming he has some.
I confirm that.
supermax wrote:I agree. I am alrady struggling with high allied tech...
If you look at the labs then Soviet start Infantry and Armor all at level 1 so actually Germans must catch them in order to have tech advantage. Same goes for US (the have 0 for ARM defense). Only UK is 'naked' on Allied side.

So if he invests in INF and ARM only you will be more less even (I didn't count exactly). Spare point required in ORG and you have the picture.
supermax wrote:But also i noticed that moriss dint loose experience with his fighters in england. He replaired the fight with a 4 steps repair and didnt loose his 1 pts of experience. Tis was on 3 ftrs. Already sent the savegames to developpers for explanation
Do you loose experience? I was asking that some time ago and I was told you don't This is what I see in my games e.g. now my MECH gets 1 'cross' each turn after being attacked by 2 air and 4 ground units.

Gosh, I'm really amazed how skillful Morris became in this strategy...
Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.

Kragdob
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Post by Kragdob » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:57 pm

Maybe lowering Western Allies ORG to lvl 1 should be considered? I'm not sure that even if they had this equipment they would be able to match German experience in ground war in 1941/1942 (look what Rommel was able to do in NA being outnumbered almost in everything). To balance the fleet and the air they might be given some tech there (in those areas Germans was inferior on the contrary)
Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.

Crazygunner1
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Post by Crazygunner1 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:11 pm

Also look at the small changes that was for GS 2.0 that favors the the allies more than the axis.

More cities on the eastern front, cities are small fortresses, ever since those have been added it is incresingly harder to be on the offensive. On the eastern front it can be quite hard fighting around cities and slows progress quite a bit. Before GS 2.0 the general opinion was that Moscow was reachable in 41, nowdays it is not so unless you intend to overextend and loose bigtime when winter comes.

Leaders also favors the defender. Russians can afford to put out small defensive leaders in important cities in the path of Axis, they have to take those cities in order to continue advancing, with tech pararity or almost, those cities become very hard to capture.

One could argue that Axis get´s it all back when they are on the defense, the problem with that asumtion is that Axis can be hit hard in 41 when they are quite weak and vulnerable. In 41 they don´t have the army to support a large front, they usually have limited oil and not enough PPs. So any setbacks hits them very hard and consequences will be more severe. Also the allies have almost unlimited oil wich means their planes can fly almost every turn to cause damage or make the defender loose entrenchments before they attack.

I think these are small changes in the game, that the developers haven´t considered and favors the allies more. I think this together with some other things tips the scale to the allied side in an otherwise very balanced game.

The funny thing is that i prefer to play the Axis, why? Because it is more challanging.... :lol:

Crazyg

gchristie
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Post by gchristie » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:25 pm

I can only speak from my limited experience, but with the changes in 2.0 I'm able to last much longer playing as Axis. I'm in a PBEM game where I might, knock on wood, make it to May 1945... So I am finding it much more enjoyable playing as Axis which I agree is the more challenging game, though JimC is giving me a heck of a time with his Axis forces. So I also see the flip side that with 2.0 I have to be a much better Allied player too and I face the real potential of losing as allies for the first time.

So the mod is becoming an even better game, and it is the game play that matters most to me (no disprespect to all you historian grognard types). Keep it up guys, as Mae West once said "too much of a good thing can be wonderful."

Thank goodness Morris is not as good a tactician as he is a strategist. But as much as people are criticizing him, he has served a useful purpose in pointing out some of the exploits which is making GS even better than before.
"Despite everything, I believe that people are really good at heart."
~Anne Frank

Crazygunner1
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Post by Crazygunner1 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:30 pm

gchristie wrote:Thank goodness Morris is not as good a tactician as he is a strategist. But as much as people are criticizing him, he has served a useful purpose in pointing out some of the exploits which is making GS even better than before.
I agree...

peterjfrigate
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Post by peterjfrigate » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:53 pm

I'm in a game as the Axis vs. Morris right now and he's adapted a lot to the changes. So far I am the one doing unorthodox things and he is playing very conservatively, e.g. he's protecting the RN, withdrawn the BEF to safety, & kept a french fleet deterrent in the Med.

Crazygunner1
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Post by Crazygunner1 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:57 pm

peterjfrigate wrote:I'm in a game as the Axis vs. Morris right now and he's adapted a lot to the changes. So far I am the one doing unorthodox things and he is playing very conservatively, e.g. he's protecting the RN, withdrawn the BEF to safety, & kept a french fleet deterrent in the Med.
Well he is probably just waiting for Barbarossa to start, then he will launch :wink:

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