Supermax-Moriss restart (Game stopped)

After action reports for Commander Europe at War.

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supermax
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Post by supermax » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:35 pm

Plaid wrote:About 3 supply - its not about sure in succes or not, now you are sure it will be failure. You just don't have enough fair turns to get from border to Moscow against weakest soviet resistance even when you start in May, thanks to 3 supply zone. It mean that soviets can flee without fear that they will lose anything.
Agreed. And it also is VERY dangerous to be caught in an3 supply zone in SW with a counter attacking russian.

trulster
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Post by trulster » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:39 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:
I agree that Supermax still has a good chance winning this game. I also agree with him that it's not fun anymore playing against people who just exploit the game rules and won't follow historical paths.

So my question to you all is this: Should we simply ignore the issues we see that Morris shows us and get GS v2.1 out the door as planned? Or should we try to fix yet another issue and hope there won't be many more holes to plug. I feel I'm running out of ideas to what to try here.
I think yes, I also fail to see the massive problem in this AAR, Allies losing many units and so what? Russians seem to be on the verge of collapse due to suicidal attacks and are ripe for the taking. Certainly it must valid for Morris to try this way of playing even if not "historical"? And not even leading to success?

As for losses, with no convoys being intercepted at all, obviously the Allies will have a massive PP advantage, so it makes sense to go for attrition. As noted, he build mostly high quality units which do not affect manpower as much as high numbers of infantry.

I think a great aspect of GS is the freedom to try alternative strategies, changing the rules too much to stop certain styles will likely also hamper the freedom. The 3-supply zone in 41 does seem a bit restrictive though if the outcome always is a Dniepr defence. A bit boring, ditto the tendency to bug out of North Africa.

Peter Stauffenberg
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Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:00 pm

Supply range 3 was introduced to simulate the rail gauge conversion that took place in Russia.

The problem is not in the phase when Germany advances, but at the time of the severe winter. The problem is that the Russians can advance faster than the Germans can retreat.

So maybe the supply range should be upgraded in October and not January.

This simulates the rail conversion units have caught up with the front line by then.
This would allow the Germans more time to retreat or make a Typhoon dash for Moscow

At least it will make it harder to lose Moscow in August as happened in games with Morris as the Axis

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Post by BuddyGrant » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:06 pm

Important question: Does Morris do as well with the axis in this version of the game? If not isn't this simply a play balance issue? I know the solution to play balance is extremely complex, but that's why this testing is going on, right? I'd love to see this game continue, as well as a rematch with Max/Morris playing the opposite sides in the same game version.

Plaid
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Post by Plaid » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:12 pm

But why should we look at Morris, if normal people struggled to get Moscow in october-november before any changes.
I think Morris-related feedback should be ignored big time.

Cybvep
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Post by Cybvep » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:48 pm

Again, ignoring the problems is just stupid. Feedback is feedback. The problem is that Moriss doesn't want to say what he does.

Also, conquering Moscow or Stalingrad shouldn't be normal procedure IMO. This didn't happen IRL and it definitely shouldn't be easy. Conquering Omsk is pure fantasy.

The problem is not in the phase when Germany advances, but at the time of the severe winter. The problem is that the Russians can advance faster than the Germans can retreat.

So maybe the supply range should be upgraded in October and not January.
I don't understand why it's based on a specific date, anyway. What if I attack in 1942? Why should the infrastructure be better then? BTW I just noticed that the Soviets "transfer" their industry to Siberia somewhere around Oct 1941 if they were not attacked and they "mobilise their industry". This is absolute nonsense. The industry was transferred because of German advance, not because Stalin suddenly thought that it would be a good idea.

Also, maybe the typical Winter counter-offensive should be less overwhelming? It wasn't so crippling to the Germans IRL as it often is in-game. They still managed to overwhelm the Russian defences easily in 1942 until their supply lines became overstretched and their frontline became overextended.

Plaid
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Post by Plaid » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:51 pm

Conquering Moscow in 1941 never was normal in any version, I ever played.
I am trying to say that with 3 supply rule its just flat 0% chance.

Toby42
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Post by Toby42 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:54 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:One simple way to deal with amphs is to make the transport only amph capable if within 10 hexes of a friendly port. Then we don't need control ports. It also means transports far at sea will look like transport and not some as amphs.

It will also encourage landing from area to area instead of a direct invasion to the target area. E. G. USA used island hopping in the Pacific instead of going straight for the Philipines or Japan
But, didn't some of the US forces for North Africa come directly from the US?
Tony

supermax
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Post by supermax » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:08 pm

Plaid wrote:Conquering Moscow in 1941 never was normal in any version, I ever played.
I am trying to say that with 3 supply rule its just flat 0% chance.
There is a chance i took moscow in my previous game with moriss.

But even if yo take it you are asking for a ton of trouble since SW will catch the germans unaware

Cybvep
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Post by Cybvep » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:15 pm

Yes, but Gibraltar was near and served as Allied HQ. Also, the Vichy French resistance was mostly just token.

shawkhan
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Post by shawkhan » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:24 pm

I wish people would stop changing this game around because of one person, it is fine the way it is. I think the reason Morris doesn't say what he is doing is blindingly obvious, he can't.
The only thing this game needs more than anything else is better security for PBEM. Perhaps I am just being cynical.

Cybvep
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Post by Cybvep » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:37 pm

The devs said that they found nothing fishy about his previous games.

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Post by Kragdob » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:45 pm

Cybvep wrote:Also, maybe the typical Winter counter-offensive should be less overwhelming? It wasn't so crippling to the Germans IRL as it often is in-game. They still managed to overwhelm the Russian defences easily in 1942 until their supply lines became overstretched and their frontline became overextended.
It should be way less offensive. When we made "Moscow 1941" game our research showed that no forces were transferred from Far East to the battle :shock: and e.g. 1st Shock Army was 7 brigades. Success they achieved was mostly due to winter and overextension and exhaustion of Germans on December 5th (record was, if I remember correctly, for one of German motorized division 2 regiments to cover 150km front).

In June 1941 there were ~15 divisions in Far East (by http://niehorster.orbat.com/)
Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.

Plaid
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Post by Plaid » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:01 pm

Cybvep wrote:The devs said that they found nothing fishy about his previous games.
Not everything can be detected by devs.

supermax
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Post by supermax » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:06 pm

Cybvep wrote:The devs said that they found nothing fishy about his previous games.
Who said they were the only experts at programming?

For all we know moriss is a java genius.

Plaid
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Post by Plaid » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:07 pm

You don't have to be java guru to reload turns though :)

Cybvep
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Post by Cybvep » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:11 pm

Plaid wrote:You don't have to be java guru to reload turns though :)
Um, everyone can do this and you have absolutely no control over it, yet Moriss alone is so effective with his extreme strategy.

We could let him play as the Axis now and see what happens.

BuddyGrant
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Post by BuddyGrant » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:12 pm

Lets refrain from cheating talk. If people think someone is cheating then stop playing with them, but to openly accuse a successful player of cheating without evidence is well above the calibre of people in this forum. Based on the number of games and the speed of the turns Morris submits it seems highly unlikely he is doing a reload kind of cheat anyway. If that was the answer to his success then it would take a tremendous amount of time to achieve the results he has achieved in the AAR games posted. These kinds of results would require 1000's & 1000's of reloads per game :lol: .

peterjfrigate
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Post by peterjfrigate » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:42 pm

Did a quick count and here's what I can see from Supermax's last set of screenshots: The Russians have 188 *ground* combat factors left on the front line while the Axis have 355 -- that's almost double !

Here's a breakdown of the *factors* on the map and the result is quite remarkable:

FACTORS.....FTR.....TAC/STR......ARM.......MECH.......INF

AXIS............21.......16..............21.........30............304

RUSSIAN.....6..........2.................0..........34............154

By "frontline" I mean that I excluded the many pocketed russian troops which have no chance of rescue as well as partisans, and some Axis garrison and counterinsurgency troops. Of course there might be some Russians hidden off map, especially air, though that seems very unlikely at this point given Morris' gameplan. Russia can introduce up to about 40 new factors per turn if he sticks to INF corps (i.e. only 5-6 turns to rebuild EVERYTHING -- that is how little is left), but of course the Axis won't just sit there either.
Last edited by peterjfrigate on Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Schnurri
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Post by Schnurri » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:44 pm

Agreed. I've played Morris in several games and the key to his success is not good luck on particular battles but overall strategy and the high tech levels he gets as Allies. He does it fairly I think. When he played Axis against me he had normal levels and I counterattacked near Rostov and drove him back into Germany in 43 - we only stopped because of a bug that didn't allow a fortress and we've since restarted with the latest version.

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