FORTRESS EUROPA - Game gamme stopped (RC9)

After action reports for Commander Europe at War.

Moderators: Happycat, rkr1958, Slitherine Core

Peter Stauffenberg
General - Carrier
General - Carrier
Posts: 4710
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:27 pm

Italian surrender won't be harder for you. The Allies already have Tripoli, Tunis, Sardinia and Messina and need one more. It can be Palermo, Reggio or Tirana (or any other mainland Italian city).

So you have more cities to defend now than before to prevent the Italian surrender.

rkr1958
General - Elite King Tiger
General - Elite King Tiger
Posts: 4262
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:20 am

Post by rkr1958 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:26 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:Italian surrender won't be harder for you. The Allies already have Tripoli, Tunis, Sardinia and Messina and need one more. It can be Palermo, Reggio or Tirana (or any other mainland Italian city).

So you have more cities to defend now than before to prevent the Italian surrender.
We'll have to see what people's experiences are with this change; but personally I think we've made the surrender of Italy a bit more difficult by requiring 5 surrender cities even though we've added Tripoli and all Italian cities. That's why I voted for the number to be 4 and not 5. With 4, Italy would surrender when Tripoli, Tunis, Messina and Palermo fell as they did historically. Now, the allied player needs one other city (e.g., Reggio or Calgaria on Sardinia). Personally, I felt 4 with the new cities added would have been more historical and would have diluted the effectiveness of the Sicilian blob strategy. With 5 my gut tells me we've made it more difficult for the Allies to conquer Italy and not really much to counter the Sicilian blob strategy. But, I was outvoted. :(

Crazygunner1
Major - 8.8 cm FlaK 36
Major - 8.8 cm FlaK 36
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:13 pm

Post by Crazygunner1 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:31 pm

rkr1958 wrote:
Stauffenberg wrote:Italian surrender won't be harder for you. The Allies already have Tripoli, Tunis, Sardinia and Messina and need one more. It can be Palermo, Reggio or Tirana (or any other mainland Italian city).

So you have more cities to defend now than before to prevent the Italian surrender.
We'll have to see what people's experiences are with this change; but personally I think we've made the surrender of Italy a bit more difficult by requiring 5 surrender cities even though we've added Tripoli and all Italian cities. That's why I voted for the number to be 4 and not 5. With 4, Italy would surrender when Tripoli, Tunis, Messina and Palermo fell as they did historically. Now, the allied player needs one other city (e.g., Reggio or Calgaria on Sardinia). Personally, I felt 4 with the new cities added would have been more historical and would have diluted the effectiveness of the Sicilian blob strategy. With 5 my gut tells me we've made it more difficult for the Allies to conquer Italy and not really much to counter the Sicilian blob strategy. But, I was outvoted. :(
"They will pay the ultimate price for their lack of vision" :wink:

Cybvep
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1259
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:38 pm

Post by Cybvep » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:54 pm

Sardinia shouldn't be so hard to conquer. The Axis will simply not have enough forces to cover every Italian city properly, so there will be gaps in their lines. However, this may have an unintended consequence of the Axis players building fewer subs and more troops as Italy, but it would be ok, since Italy shouldn't have thousands of subs and their MP isn't that great, anyway.

Also, I really like the fact that North Africa won't be so easy to ignore now.

supermax
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:05 pm

Post by supermax » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:51 pm

just bought my new computer. I am going to be away for a while in the States, but when i am back the game should resume (1st week of feb.)

Sorry about the delay, damned processor and hard drive!

Diplomaticus
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:10 pm

Post by Diplomaticus » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:47 pm

Max,

Hurry back! I can't wait for the next installment of this fascinating AAR.

gchristie
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:02 pm
Location: Maine, USA

Post by gchristie » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:33 pm

Installment is a great word. Reminds me of when I was a boy and would get installments of the Adventures of Tin Tin and had to wait to see how the latest cliff hanger would be resolved.

Max' AARs are always good fun.

I suspect he is as hard on his computers as he is on his opponents. :lol:
"Despite everything, I believe that people are really good at heart."
~Anne Frank

Aryaman
1st Lieutenant - 15 cm sFH 18
1st Lieutenant - 15 cm sFH 18
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:12 pm

Post by Aryaman » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:51 pm

Some ideas about the Sicilian Blob

1) Historically there was no direct link between the conquest of Sicily and the surrender of Italy. The governement of Badoglio was negotiating in secret with the allies before that but was afraid of German represalies, it was the allied landing in mainland Italy what precipitated the surrender.

2) The Sicialian blob is a product of game mechanics, that doesn´t allow units stacking.

IMO we should look for a completely different approach to the problem of Italian surrender.

Diplomaticus
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:10 pm

Post by Diplomaticus » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:48 pm

Aryaman wrote:IMO we should look for a completely different approach to the problem of Italian surrender.
I'm not so sure about that. Although it's still too early to have much in the way of playtesting results, I'm excited by the more open possibilities of our new rule. I've never seen Albania be of much strategic interest, for example, but the new rule now makes an Allied move into the Balkans more interesting. Sardinia becomes a more attractive target, too, and with both Tripoli and Tunis as surrender cities, I think we'll even see the possibility of later game sneak attacks (maybe by paratroops?) by the Axis to re-take lost North African cities. All of this spells more variety, more energy, more fun.

Aryaman
1st Lieutenant - 15 cm sFH 18
1st Lieutenant - 15 cm sFH 18
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:12 pm

Post by Aryaman » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:19 pm

But yet, you need to land in Sicily to force the surrender of Italy, so the problem with the Sicilian Blob remains.
Italy fell bacuase its armies suffered defeat, its people war privation and there was no hope of victory. But that was a gradual process. The Italians fought with decreasing morale and by the time of operation Husky Italian units had only limited defensive capabilities.
In the game, through research and upgarde, you can end up in 1944 or even 1945 with tough mech units defending Sicily against allies with advantage. That is totally unrealistic. IMO the approach to Italian surrender should be
1) Throsugh casualties and defeat, so that escessive casualties and the loss of every city in North Africa and everywhere had a telling effect of the organisation level of Italian units so that in the end Italian uniots should have little value even if at high level of research.

2) Lowering the research capabilities of Italy, restricting the number of laboratories. Having high tech subs of mech units was well beyond the capabilities of Italy.

The final effect should be that Italy would not be able to hold if suffering defeats unless heavily supported by German units. The final event to get Italy to surrender could be that, after a given low level of morale after defeats and losing cities Italy would surrender whenever Allied troops land in mainland Italy, without the need for conquering cities (heavily defended by German Units)

In fact, the OOB of Italy at the start of the war shows an army that is considerably much powerful by comparison that it should be. Italy has one mech and one Armour unit, while France, with an incomparable more powerful and modern army, just 2 mechs and no armour.

Diplomaticus
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:10 pm

Post by Diplomaticus » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:48 pm

Aryaman wrote:But yet, you need to land in Sicily to force the surrender of Italy, so the problem with the Sicilian Blob remains.
Italy fell bacuase its armies suffered defeat, its people war privation and there was no hope of victory. But that was a gradual process. The Italians fought with decreasing morale and by the time of operation Husky Italian units had only limited defensive capabilities.
In the game, through research and upgarde, you can end up in 1944 or even 1945 with tough mech units defending Sicily against allies with advantage. That is totally unrealistic. IMO the approach to Italian surrender should be
1) Throsugh casualties and defeat, so that escessive casualties and the loss of every city in North Africa and everywhere had a telling effect of the organisation level of Italian units so that in the end Italian uniots should have little value even if at high level of research.

2) Lowering the research capabilities of Italy, restricting the number of laboratories. Having high tech subs of mech units was well beyond the capabilities of Italy.

The final effect should be that Italy would not be able to hold if suffering defeats unless heavily supported by German units. The final event to get Italy to surrender could be that, after a given low level of morale after defeats and losing cities Italy would surrender whenever Allied troops land in mainland Italy, without the need for conquering cities (heavily defended by German Units)

In fact, the OOB of Italy at the start of the war shows an army that is considerably much powerful by comparison that it should be. Italy has one mech and one Armour unit, while France, with an incomparable more powerful and modern army, just 2 mechs and no armour.
What you say makes sense from the perspective of history. However, if we were to make sweeping changes to the game to make Italy play more like RL, who can tell what the effects would be on the game? I have already contended elsewhere on this forum (and no one has contradicted me on this point) that in CEAW GS when Italy falls at or near the actual historical date of September 1943, it spells doom for the Axis. Nobody has come forth to cite even a single example of Italy falling in '43 and yet the Axis still emerging with even a minor victory. This indicates that keeping Italy in the game is absolutely essential for Axis victory. If we're going to seriously weaken Italy (and you give some good arguments why we should do so), then we need to make some substantial changes to make Germany more capable of standing alone. Maybe a rule that says the Allies are forbidden to land in France/Atlantic coast until summer of 1944! That's historical too, you know, but I've never played in a game where the Allies actually waited that long to implement Overlord. Or perhaps to reflect history, the US forces should be required to do some 'warm-up' actions, such as Torch, to train up their green troops.

The moral of the story is this: you can certainly make very convincing arguments that CEAW does not accurately reflect Italy, but you cannot change something this important in isolation. There are lots of portions of the game that are equally out of whack with RL. I think we need to resolve ourselves to the fact that some of these will just have to be accepted.

Cybvep
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1259
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:38 pm

Post by Cybvep » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:40 pm

TBH I think that CEAW does a good job of representing WWII at the grand strategy level. I've seen games that were far more complicated and yet gave less plausible results.

supermax
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:05 pm

Post by supermax » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:51 am

Well guys, i am finally back online, thanks to i5 quad core SSD hardrive supercomputer !!!

However, Zechi told me that we are just about to upgrade to a new version of the game or something like that, and he prefers stopping the game or at least putting it on hold.

A big bummer thats for sure, but cant do anything about it i underdtand the reasons behind it.

I just wish the game versions would stop changing so much and so often.

As to games, i have none running at the moment with the end of this one, but am unsure if i should start a new one with this new version or something coming up... Maybee i should find a fast-playing guy (several turn an evening, eastern standard time) and stick to RC8 for the remainder of the game. Anyone up for it?

As to the game itself, strategically i was in a good position, but a precarious one for a major victory, but i was almost assured of a minor one. I will redo that strategy one day but changes several aspects. First, build a stronger navy with the Italians. Second, conquer more countries in the quiet period before 1942. Last, build more ships with the germans.

See ya guys next AAR :(

Cybvep
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1259
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:38 pm

Post by Cybvep » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:31 am

The new version will not be save game compatible, so this really is THE end :(

Peter Stauffenberg
General - Carrier
General - Carrier
Posts: 4710
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:01 am

Max can remaing on RC8 if he prefers. You don't have to update to RC9. It's not yet ready for release. I hope to have most done this weekend and then the alpha team will test it first.

supermax
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:05 pm

Post by supermax » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:32 pm

Not sure i get what you say here?

Peter Stauffenberg
General - Carrier
General - Carrier
Posts: 4710
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:59 pm

If you want to complete the games you play you can just decide to wait with upgrading to RC9 and remain on RC8. Just make sure your opponents also remain on RC8.

Some people have dual locations of the GS files so they can play with different versions.

So the game won't have to terminate until both of you upgrade to RC9. OK, you won't then benefit from the new rail conversion and truck supply system we're implementing for the east front, but we will have others who will upgrade and give us feedback on how the changed functionality works.

What is special about RC9 is that I need to store in each hex the rail gauge there, whether the hex is a rail head or not, whether it's using truck supply to a rail head or not. In gamestate I need to store when Barbarossa started because Russia won't be able to convert from rail lines to broad gauge the 3 first turns after the invasion begins.

Diplomaticus
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Elite Panzer IIIL
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:10 pm

Post by Diplomaticus » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:06 pm

If it's not too late, I would put in my vote to continue this game. This one has been fascinating, and I think a lot of us are enjoying the ways in which you're showing us some different aspects of the game.

supermax
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:05 pm

Post by supermax » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:01 pm

Well, zechi has stated that he wants to upgradeband stop the game.

Since its very much in the balance to see who will win this game, maybee someone would be willing to takeover from zechi?

I guess someone could propose it to him...

Since he absolutly want to upgrade to rc9, this is the only way to continue this game...

I do have some shots from the last turn i will post them. We are now in october and the russians are advancing, while the axis is kicking the allies butts in the MED.

supermax
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:05 pm

Post by supermax » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:58 am

So... the last turn i may post in this game... Some interesting results all over the map!!!

Also sorry, i fucked up on the screen capture from Italy. Darn, too bad it was the most interesting one!


Image

Image

Post Reply

Return to “Commander Europe at War : AAR's”