The Dyle Plan

After action reports for Commander Europe at War.

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Morris
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Re: The Dyle Plan

Post by Morris » Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:08 pm

peterjfrigate wrote:Image

You are right, so here's an even better way to take Liege - works 100% of the time and you don't need your airforce!
sorry , I can't see your picture. would you please explain how to do it ?

Cybvep
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Re: The Dyle Plan

Post by Cybvep » Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:21 pm

Place ARM one hex below Cologne and take Liege unopposed.

Diplomaticus
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Re: The Dyle Plan

Post by Diplomaticus » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:14 pm

Well done. But taking Liege by itself may not be enough to offset the numerous advantages of Morris' Dyle Plan. This needs to be part of a more comprehensive Axis response. It's too bad, too, because by merely threatening the possible use of the Dyle Plan, the German is forced to blunt his Poland attack, possibly forcing him into a 3-turn conquest of Warsaw.
Last edited by Diplomaticus on Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ncali
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Re: The Dyle Plan

Post by ncali » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:25 pm

Diplomaticus wrote:Well done. But taking Liege by itself may not be enough to offset the numerous advantages of Morris' Dyle Plan. This needs to be part of amore comprehensive Axis response. It's too bad, too, because by merely threatening the possible use of the Dyle Plan, the German is forced to blunt his Poland attack, possibly forcing him into a 3-turn conquest of Warsaw.
It's true that the threat is there. But I'm still not convinced that the Dyle plan's advantages in 1939-1940 aren't somewhat offset by (1) risks associated with weather and (2) the long-term handicap of slightly higher Axis income from Belgium, a weaker US, and (presumably) a weaker UK due to the investment in France that goes along with this plan.

It will be interesting to see how the current games play out in this respect.

On the other hand, I tend to think that the Allied conquest of Belgium shouldn't prevent the Axis from getting their Blitzkrieg bonus when Brussels falls.

Rhialto
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Re: The Dyle Plan

Post by Rhialto » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:16 pm

ncali wrote: On the other hand, I tend to think that the Allied conquest of Belgium shouldn't prevent the Axis from getting their Blitzkrieg bonus when Brussels falls.

I am not sure I agree. What made the Blitzkrieg so devastating was the speed of events and the way the German forces swept through the Ardennes and to the coast, cutting the BEF and forces in Northern France off from Paris. France fell in the Spring partly due to the speed of events overwhelming the inflexible French and British leadership. This disorganization is what the Blitzkrieg bonus in GS attempts to model. With Morris's version of the Dyle plan there is a more static line in Belgium that is much more like the 1914-18 war. France does not fall until the Autumn or even early winter. In this context it seem unreasonable to have a bonus given when the Axis grind down the Brussels defence.

Morris
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Re: The Dyle Plan

Post by Morris » Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:41 am

Rhialto wrote:
ncali wrote: On the other hand, I tend to think that the Allied conquest of Belgium shouldn't prevent the Axis from getting their Blitzkrieg bonus when Brussels falls.

I am not sure I agree. What made the Blitzkrieg so devastating was the speed of events and the way the German forces swept through the Ardennes and to the coast, cutting the BEF and forces in Northern France off from Paris. France fell in the Spring partly due to the speed of events overwhelming the inflexible French and British leadership. This disorganization is what the Blitzkrieg bonus in GS attempts to model. With Morris's version of the Dyle plan there is a more static line in Belgium that is much more like the 1914-18 war. France does not fall until the Autumn or even early winter. In this context it seem unreasonable to have a bonus given when the Axis grind down the Brussels defence.
You are quite right sir ! It just like WW1 . :)

Morris
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Re: The Dyle Plan

Post by Morris » Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:47 am

Cybvep wrote:Place ARM one hex below Cologne and take Liege unopposed.

I have got an idea to counter this . Anyone want to have a try ?

BTW , as Diplomaticus 's opinion , to put an arm here means Axis has to bliz & Polland will cost more pp & more turns . The Bliz will only works well when Axis may get a five continue fair turn like Joe in the present AAR with Joe . :)

Diplomaticus
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Re: The Dyle Plan

Post by Diplomaticus » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:17 pm

Morris wrote: The Bliz will only works well when Axis may get a five continue fair turn like Joe in the present AAR with Joe . :)
Hmmm... I don't think I agree with this. Max has demonstrated that you don't need to be super-lucky with weather to make the Fall 1939 Blitz very effective. IMO, as long as your tactics are sound and you get average weather (= 2 clear turns in Oct/Nov 1939), the Blitz can be a very viable option.

Cybvep
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Re: The Dyle Plan

Post by Cybvep » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:39 pm

IMO Blitz will work for you if you are willing to trade casualties for time.

joerock22
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Re: The Dyle Plan

Post by joerock22 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:35 pm

Morris wrote:The Bliz will only works well when Axis may get a five continue fair turn like Joe in the present AAR with Joe . :)
I disagree with this as well. In our game, I got 5 fair turns and Paris fell on February 28. If I had gottan 4 fair turns instead of 5, Paris probably would have fallen in April. It would not have lasted until the summer regardless. That is still a very successful blitz campaign.

Nevertheless, you have made refinements in subsequent games that make me glad that I was the first one you tried this against! :)

Morris
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Re: The Dyle Plan

Post by Morris » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:02 pm

Cybvep wrote:IMO Blitz will work for you if you are willing to trade casualties for time.
I agree this point . It is a trade . But good weather can make this trade benificial for Axis .

Morris
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Re: The Dyle Plan

Post by Morris » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:18 pm

joerock22 wrote:
Morris wrote:The Bliz will only works well when Axis may get a five continue fair turn like Joe in the present AAR with Joe . :)
I disagree with this as well. In our game, I got 5 fair turns and Paris fell on February 28. If I had gottan 4 fair turns instead of 5, Paris probably would have fallen in April. It would not have lasted until the summer regardless. That is still a very successful blitz campaign.

Nevertheless, you have made refinements in subsequent games that make me glad that I was the first one you tried this against! :)
If Paris would fall in April , you wouldn't be able to take Scotland before winter :(

Morris
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Re: The Dyle Plan

Post by Morris » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:22 pm

Diplomaticus wrote:
Morris wrote: The Bliz will only works well when Axis may get a five continue fair turn like Joe in the present AAR with Joe . :)
Hmmm... I don't think I agree with this. Max has demonstrated that you don't need to be super-lucky with weather to make the Fall 1939 Blitz very effective. IMO, as long as your tactics are sound and you get average weather (= 2 clear turns in Oct/Nov 1939), the Blitz can be a very viable option.
But you still have 25% possibility bad luck of weather ( Oct 11th mud) , it is a big risk for Axis , that's why before Dyle plan launched , 85% player use sitz not bliz . :)

Cybvep
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Re: The Dyle Plan

Post by Cybvep » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:31 pm

Slitzkrieg is simply the safer option, as it saves you casualties and most players are very worried about casualties. However, some players prefer a more aggressive approach and aren't afraid of delaying the fall of Poland and suffering higher losses. Keep in mind that some (but only some) of the lost PP will be "repaid" by earlier fall of France.

Blitzkrieg can give you many strategic options if you know what you are doing, especially when your opponent expected sth else and positioned their troops for the intervention in Norway, for example. I agree that's it's always a risk, as you cannot control the weather.

Morris
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Re: The Dyle Plan

Post by Morris » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:45 pm

Cybvep wrote:Slitzkrieg is simply the safer option, as it saves you casualties and most players are very worried about casualties. However, some players prefer a more aggressive approach and aren't afraid of delaying the fall of Poland and suffering higher losses. Keep in mind that some (but only some) of the lost PP will be "repaid" by earlier fall of France.

Blitzkrieg can give you many strategic options if you know what you are doing, especially when your opponent expected sth else and positioned their troops for the intervention in Norway, for example. I agree that's it's always a risk, as you cannot control the weather.
The price of Bliz is not only the loss of pp & manpower , another important part is the delay of labs ! some of labs are opened 4-6 turns later( After France campaign) . If it is a close game , this delay will be fatal . If it is real war , no one will take such a big risk but the crazy ones like Hitler .

Cybvep
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Re: The Dyle Plan

Post by Cybvep » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:53 pm

The attack through Ardennes was very risky, too, you know :). You may be right about labs, but having labs but losing time in case of a determined French-British defence in 1940 isn't very good, either. The question is what can you do with gained time.

Morris
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Re: The Dyle Plan

Post by Morris » Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:20 pm

Cybvep wrote:The attack through Ardennes was very risky, too, you know :). You may be right about labs, but having labs but losing time in case of a determined French-British defence in 1940 isn't very good, either. The question is what can you do with gained time.
If I had the chance , I will do a super strong Babarosa ! :)

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