Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

After action reports for Commander Europe at War.

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Kragdob
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Kragdob » Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:21 pm

richardsd wrote:I think peopel forget why SUB's didn't attack DD's in real life - it wasn't because they couldn't sink them, they could easily, its just thats not a priority target for a torpedo - which should be sending more valuable targets to the bottom
Which is the opposite in the game. Sinking a 50 PPs worth DD is more profitable than using the same amount of SUBs to sink 50 PPs convoy. Even if SUBs take loses.
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by jimwinsor » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:33 pm

Kragdob wrote:
richardsd wrote:I think peopel forget why SUB's didn't attack DD's in real life - it wasn't because they couldn't sink them, they could easily, its just thats not a priority target for a torpedo - which should be sending more valuable targets to the bottom
Which is the opposite in the game. Sinking a 50 PPs worth DD is more profitable than using the same amount of SUBs to sink 50 PPs convoy. Even if SUBs take loses.
Yep.
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Morris
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Morris » Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:04 pm

Kragdob wrote:
richardsd wrote:I think peopel forget why SUB's didn't attack DD's in real life - it wasn't because they couldn't sink them, they could easily, its just thats not a priority target for a torpedo - which should be sending more valuable targets to the bottom
Which is the opposite in the game. Sinking a 50 PPs worth DD is more profitable than using the same amount of SUBs to sink 50 PPs convoy. Even if SUBs take loses.
yes , you are right . But actually this will force Allies to concentrate on Navy tech & Navy building ,it will probably postpone the 1941 & 1942 Normandy & give Axis more opportunity to deal with Russians .It looks good to complete the game balance & will make Allies player feel press to accomplish a victory . :)

Kragdob
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Kragdob » Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:39 pm

This is why I don't oppose much even though it is not much realistic.
Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.

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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Morris » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:45 am

Kragdob wrote:This is why I don't oppose much even though it is not much realistic.
yes ! Master ! :)

GogTheMild
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by GogTheMild » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:40 pm

The sub war heats up.

It’s turn 39 – September 1941 – and as historically the Axis subs are posing problems for the western Allies. Kragdob’s now unescorted convoy had headed north. I counted 12 hexes and sent a sub after it:

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Drat. OK, I sent another couple:
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Turn40.

Both of my exposed subs were attacked. And each lost a step. What happened to the evade function? So taking 18 PP off that convoy had cost me 5 oil and 2 Sub steps :( . I was reminded, yet again, why convoys were such poor targets.

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Meanwhile I was attempting to cover the central and southern Atlantic with a sub search pattern:

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Turn 42. (Nothing happened in 41.)

Hello, it likes as if Kragdob is determined that this convoy will get through:

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I don’t think that this one will:

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Nor this one:

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Turn 43.

And this one probably has a limited life expectancy:

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And the remnants of the western convoy wipe themselves out. At least that saves me some oil.

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So there is a tech and sub density point at which attacking convoys does pay off. At turn end the Americans come in, which is going to alter the complexion of the Battle of the Atlantic. Looking at the Forces table Kragdob would seem to have a lot of UK DDs and US Strats.

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Turn 44.

This seems like an unfeasibly large escort for a 4 PP convoy:

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Tune in next week to find out why.
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Peter Stauffenberg
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:10 am

I noticed a minor bug with the US joins the Allies. The US flag were shown correctly as affected by, but the Italian flag should not be shown. I sent a bugfix for this.

The reason was a typo. -1 means no flag. 1 = Italy. So the - was missing.

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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by GogTheMild » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:30 am

The subs get the upper hand.

Turn 45

The large flock of DDs seen last turn scatters. None of them run into a sub – typical!

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A sub in the far north is hit by the newly joined Americans:

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It continues on its long trip home to upgrade. And spots something interesting:

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The wolves gather, placing themselves across what seems certain to be its route:

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Turn 46.

Amazing, the entire fleets sails north, virtually brushing the bows of my waiting subs.

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Count 17 hexes and send a scout:

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We set up a new blocking position, with more subs this time:

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Meanwhile the Italians are dealing quite adequately with a southern convoy:

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Turn 47.

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At last Kragdob runs into my blockade. The transports get through, but 3 DDs are left as stragglers. And a sub off Ireland is hit by a DD and then bombed. That was sloppy of me – I should have put it on sleep at the end of the turn.

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As wolves do, we fall on the stragglers:

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One DD is sunk and a second surrounded and reduced to a single step:

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Turn 48.

Only scraps of wreckage are left of the DDs, which is not to say that the sea is empty of Allied shipping:

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This also looks interesting:

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Some Italians go to have a look at the northern convoy:

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Whilst the rest of the pack uncovers some tempting targets. Er, that is to say, a strong escort group. Blocking positions are taken up:

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Turn 49.

I had got so used to Kragdob evading my cunningly laid plans that I didn’t even wince when I saw that the convoy had sailed straight past my blockers and his DDs had all turned round and sailed back to America:

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However, Kragdob must have been running short of DDs as his new escort group was using a BB to cover one flank of the convoy. Well my subs were never able to resist temptation:

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Unexpectedly it retreated. So: if I followed up my sub would be adjacent to 2 DDs and could expect to take losses; if I didn’t then the next attack would likely retreat the BB back to where it started from. I opted for caution:

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It didn’t retreat. Goodbye BB:

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Other subs were in blocking positions, but based on past performance I wasn’t optimistic.

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Amazing. I was going to get another bite.

Turn 50.

Kragdob was determined to get this convoy through and more escorts came out whilst the RAF joined in:

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I had a go at the northern DD – sorry, no picture – but got a 1:2 and no retreat. So I gave up on that and took a couple of free hits on the convoy:

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And then set up more blockers:

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Yes!

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Turn 51.

More attacks from DDs and from the air. A couple of DDs retired to port - as you can see a couple of subs are also enjoying some R&R - but Kragdob was gamely hanging on in there.

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OK, enough of this:

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Then the convoy runs into the sub cordon for a third time:

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Turn 52.

Kragdob decides that enough is enough and runs for home:

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I mop up the convoy:

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I am starting to enjoy this wolf pack lark.
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GogTheMild
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by GogTheMild » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:44 am

Sadly Kragdob is having problems with finding time to get his turns in and so there will be a pause in this AAR. Hopefully it will be continued later. We would both like to see how the Atlantic plays out and Kragdob's 'bend with the wind' strategy means that the Allies are unusually strong for this stage of the game. To be continued.
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:08 pm

At least we can make some conclusions. If the Axis player invests in sub warfare they can make life quite hard for the Allies in the Atlantic. If the Allied player doesn't also invest in the Atlantic in such circumstances they quickly lose control.

It seems to me that the Allied player must find some kind of counter strategy against wolfpacks and build enough DD's and invest in ASW tech so they get the better odds in battles. Then the Allied play can slowly get control of the Atlantic.

I have a feeling it is very dangerous for the Allied player to send transports from USA to Europe / Africa in 1942 when the wolfpacks are lurking like in this game. That means you can't do much to harm the Germans. So not losing the battle of the Atlantic is very important for the Allies.

In this game it seems Kragdob is feeding new units to the wolfpacks and thus not regaining control. Maybe it's safer to just head for port and build up a naval force in Canada / USA. Once it's strong enough the convoys can finally be escorted again. Weak escorts means losing escorts one by one.

Kragdob
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Kragdob » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:39 pm

GogTheMild wrote:Amazing, the entire fleets sails north, virtually brushing the bows of my waiting subs.
Ha! My 'unexpected turns' strategy worked pretty well!

The battle of the convoy was pretty good as well. :-)
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by GogTheMild » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:36 pm

Your 'unexpected turns' strategy has been driving me potty. What I want in an opponent is predictability. :lol:
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by GogTheMild » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:41 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:At least we can make some conclusions. If the Axis player invests in sub warfare they can make life quite hard for the Allies in the Atlantic.
In this case things were especially difficult for the Allies as I got a full strength Italian sub fleet into the Atlantic. Note that this will happen less often in 3.0 as the facility to send them round from Suez has been removed. Nevertheless, even if it is only the German subs it would seem that maxing their tech and numbers is likely to give the Allies a torrid time. As Morris said
Morris wrote:It is really a big challenge for Allies's navy! No 1942 Normandy any more ! :)
Stauffenberg wrote:I have a feeling it is very dangerous for the Allied player to send transports from USA to Europe / Africa in 1942 when the wolfpacks are lurking like in this game. That means you can't do much to harm the Germans.
Well, Kragdob got his three American transports through without loss. But it took 13 DDs as escorts to do it and 2 of them didn't go home. He also, earlier, got several transports through to Casablanca or the Middle East; although several transports were damaged and several escorts sunk.
Stauffenberg wrote:In this game it seems Kragdob is feeding new units to the wolfpacks and thus not regaining control. Maybe it's safer to just head for port and build up a naval force in Canada / USA. Once it's strong enough the convoys can finally be escorted again. Weak escorts means losing escorts one by one.
To be fair, I don't see how Kragdob could make his escort groups stronger. For his last, 105 PP, convoy he committed 6 DDs and a BB: he lost 1 DD, 1 BB and the whole convoy.
Stauffenberg wrote:If the Allied player doesn't also invest in the Atlantic in such circumstances they quickly lose control. It seems to me that the Allied player must find some kind of counter strategy against wolfpacks and build enough DD's and invest in ASW tech so they get the better odds in battles.
Again to be fair, Kragdob has a UK ASW level of 4, although he is still upgrading.
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So he has presumably been maxing this area. I have sub level 4 for Germany, although many of my subs also need to upgrade. So it is, so far, like fighting like.

It looks as if the US might still be on level 2 though:
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If so this could be both an error and costly.
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Cybvep » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:20 am

Note that this will happen less often in 3.0 as the facility to send them round from Suez has been removed.
This won't change much if the Axis controls Gibraltar and if somebody is going for 1942 Barbarossa, their probably will get Spain.

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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by richardsd » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:00 am

the biggest problem the Allies have with an aggressive early war Axis strategy is that they have to commit to a strategy, LAB and engagement before they fully know which way the Axis is leaning. This makes it something of a binary type lottery.

I would like to play a couple of 3 games as the Allies to see if there is a suitable neutral strategy.

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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:10 am

This is where spying can come in very handy. If you study the reported enemy forces over some turns you get an impression if the strength of the German navy. If it increases more than to e. g. about 6 subs you know they invest heavily there. Any reports about changes in the number of German surface ships is a warning sign as well.

I think a neutral strategy for the Allies is to get 2 labs in naval warfare asap and put focus on ASW. DD's take only 5 turns to produce so you can build a few and get more quickly if you see the Germans have a big wolfpack.

You can quickly recover from having to few DD's, but you can't recover easily from getting behind on tech. BB's and CV's take a long time to produce so it's probably a smart thing for the Allies to not use these as escorts unless they are protected by DD's.

I think that if the Allied player didn't send any escorts in 1940-1941 then still some convoys would get through. The Axis player can't find every convoy and if he spreads his subs a bit they can't sink all. Then you can slowly build up a strong task force of DD's with a CV or two in the center. You can then afford to protect one convoy at a time. You pick the most valuable ones.

I like to build strategic bombers early and position them so they can retaliate against subs. These bombers can be reallocated to factory bombing later in the war then the sub threat is dealt with.

Many Allied players like to go for fighters, tactical bombers and more land forces. Having those units are nice because you can invade in Libya and even France. I don't get a big such force early if I have a German sub force to deal with.

Finding the balance between harassing the Germans enough to save the Russians is not so easy.

I have a feeling that GS v3.0 is quite a bit more challenging for the Allies compared to GS v2.1. We need to get GS v3.0 out the door so the elite players can find good strategies for both sides.

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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by richardsd » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:27 am

Stauffenberg wrote:This is where spying can come in very handy. If you study the reported enemy forces over some turns you get an impression if the strength of the German navy. If it increases more than to e. g. about 6 subs you know they invest heavily there. Any reports about changes in the number of German surface ships is a warning sign as well.

I think a neutral strategy for the Allies is to get 2 labs in naval warfare asap and put focus on ASW. DD's take only 5 turns to produce so you can build a few and get more quickly if you see the Germans have a big wolfpack.

You can quickly recover from having to few DD's, but you can't recover easily from getting behind on tech. BB's and CV's take a long time to produce so it's probably a smart thing for the Allies to not use these as escorts unless they are protected by DD's.

I think that if the Allied player didn't send any escorts in 1940-1941 then still some convoys would get through. The Axis player can't find every convoy and if he spreads his subs a bit they can't sink all. Then you can slowly build up a strong task force of DD's with a CV or two in the center. You can then afford to protect one convoy at a time. You pick the most valuable ones.

I like to build strategic bombers early and position them so they can retaliate against subs. These bombers can be reallocated to factory bombing later in the war then the sub threat is dealt with.

Many Allied players like to go for fighters, tactical bombers and more land forces. Having those units are nice because you can invade in Libya and even France. I don't get a big such force early if I have a German sub force to deal with.

Finding the balance between harassing the Germans enough to save the Russians is not so easy.

I have a feeling that GS v3.0 is quite a bit more challenging for the Allies compared to GS v2.1. We need to get GS v3.0 out the door so the elite players can find good strategies for both sides.
I agree with most of that, but the Axis don't need to build surface ships and you can hide how you build the SUB's

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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:44 pm

You can't hide the number of subs you have built.

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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by richardsd » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:10 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:You can't hide the number of subs you have built.
you can to an extenet delay building them and build lots in one turn

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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Morris » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:00 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:You can't hide the number of subs you have built.
Why not just hide it ? Since in real history , Allies or Axis won't figure out how many ships or Subs or tanks did their enemy build . :)

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