Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

After action reports for Commander Europe at War.

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Morris
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Morris » Wed May 29, 2013 9:14 am

Stauffenberg wrote:The easiest could have been for Kragdob and God to have separate threads. :)
Of course it will be great ! But I am afraid some of them won't have enough time to do it .
Anyway , Gog has made a wonderful AAR !

BTW , He is Gog ,not God . :)

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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by pk867 » Wed May 29, 2013 9:38 am

That may happen if the Allied player does not put effort into naval warfare. As ASW combat and radar tech are achieved, the chances are greater to locate
hidden subs and the chances for subs to evade go down. The Allied player has to adjust his tactics from previous versions.
This was the first attack on a DD and not a convoy in this AAR. Plus the DD was weakened from a previous ambush.

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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by GogTheMild » Wed May 29, 2013 10:23 am

Jim, that can happen to a large extent in 2.1; and, trust me, it's not as bad as it seems in 2.2/3.0. I don't have time to go into all of the pros and cons; but if by the end of 1943 the Atlantic is not an Allied lake - regardless of what the Axis have done - it's the Allied player's own fault.
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Cybvep » Wed May 29, 2013 3:40 pm

Huh? Evading doesn't work when you are attacking with subs. Combat results are not affected AFAIK, so DDs vs SUBs situation should be quite similar to the one we can witness in 2.1. Also, subs don't score that many hits on low tech levels against convoys - that is unchanged, too. The good thing is that unlike DDs, convoys don't fight back.

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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by jimwinsor » Wed May 29, 2013 5:43 pm

"Jim, that can happen to a large extent in 2.1 ..."

Oh, I know! Subs have gone from uber naval units to uber uber naval units.

"Huh? Evading doesn't work when you are attacking with subs."

Right, but the only way to defend ships from subs in this game is to ring them with DD or have aircraft nearby, so when it's your turn you can exact a certain degree of retribution. And that retribution will now miss 50% of the time.

We've already seen one case in this AAR when the British opted NOT to hit back when he had the chance, probably due to the dodge rule. Making the protection in that case 100%.
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by GogTheMild » Wed May 29, 2013 7:00 pm

Still not got time to really get into this. Too many games; too much real life. So, from the testers' discussion:
GogTheMild wrote:The Atlantic 1939-1940. In brief, no real changes.

The Atlantic 1941-1943. In brief, subs run riot. An Axis player who puts significant (but not crippling) resources into the Battle of the Atlantic is going to have a lot of fun. The Allies have to have made anti-sub operations their top priority already or they are in big trouble. If they are playing catch up they will be lucky to be doing a 1944 Overlord. They may well not even get that far. (Yes, it can get that bad.) Subs fairly abruptly lose their edge somewhere between early and late 1943 depending on what assumptions you use. Which represents players' prior decisions to that point.

The Atlantic 1944-1945. In brief, no real changes. Subs get wiped out if the UK and the US have been pushing ASW and Radar. (Of course focus on these comes at the expense of other areas. And the point at which you switch away from the sub war could be a nicely balanced decision.)

The Mediterranean. I quite enjoyed the difference the changes made to the war in the Med. Briefly it was a bit like the war in the Atlantic in miniature and finished, to the detriment of the subs, earlier. The latter because, I think, the Med is smaller and the places you would want subs to lurk more obvious. By the end of 1942 the heyday of the subs was over. In practice this meant the Italian subs, which suffer from other deficiencies. But if the Italians had been materially stronger I think that Allied subs would have been as badly off.

Italian subs. I tried a couple of games where the Axis took either Port Said or Gibralter and the Italians maxed their sub labs and sub numbers. :D – I want to try this against a real opponent. Hilarious.

My normal Axis game is very sub orientated and I have particular favoured tactics, but I tried to play in a more ‘general’ way.
I think that it's only an uber weapon if it changes the outcome. It shouldn't, against an appropriately prudent Allied player. It will, if the Axis invests in subs and sub tech, rule out a 1942 Overlord; even make a '43 one tricky if the Axis really pour in the resources. But by late '43 the subs are history. Don't believe me? - persuade pk to let you have the latest 2.2 and I will whip your Axis subs, and take advantage of the holes created elsewhere by you putting resources into subs. You may beat me - as Kragdob is demonstrating, I am not that good a player - and your subs will have a lot of fun, but you will discover the constraints of this strategy.

In a current test game my Allies had 9 units ashore in Normandy in late 1942 against an experienced Axis player who I know has at least 6 subs. And my transports from the US have yet (Dec 1942) to lose a step. I have lost several DDs, but that's just the cost of doing business.
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by pk867 » Wed May 29, 2013 7:02 pm

jimwinsor wrote:Right, but the only way to defend ships from subs in this game is to ring them with DD or have aircraft nearby, so when it's your turn you can exact a certain degree of retribution. And that retribution will now miss 50% of the time.
Early in the game when the tech levels are at zero. The 50% chance is for CV's and SAC units that subs can evade . DD's it is 45%.

Each level of Radar will increase by 5% the chance to locate and lessen the chance by 5% to evade. So 3 levels of radar will give CV's a 65% chance to locate subs

and a 35% chance the sub may evade attack. That is that the ASW and SUB techs are equal because their values offset each other. A DD will have a 70% to locate and the sub may evade 40% of the time.

Remember we changed the way transports are treated concerning movement. If the are empty hexes beyond the transports they will not block movement even other transports.

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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by GogTheMild » Wed May 29, 2013 7:10 pm

Yes, I forgot to mention, the sweep (ASW search function) is a deadly anti-sub addition to 2.2. Kragdob has only shown its use once in this AAR, but as ASW and Radar labs pick up it will make the subs' job significantly harder and their life expectancy shorter.
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by jimwinsor » Wed May 29, 2013 8:16 pm

Yeah, the sweep ability was useful in that it found the sub, allowing the transport to plot around it. A useful addition, but not necessarily deadly I would say (because they can still dodge).

For the record, I think it's fair that subs in this game should run riot on convoys. The problem I'm envisioning has to do with out-of-port combat ships getting sunk at will by the sub player, ganged up on one at a time, with not a whole lot of risk to the subs. If this happens a lot in 40-42 I'm not sure the western allies can hold on until the techs increase in 43. Will they have a navy left by then?
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Wed May 29, 2013 10:40 pm

If the Axis player has a lot of subs and you don't have strong enough naval units to deal with them then a possibility is to simply keep the surface ships in port until you have enough DD's to actually escort them.

With higher techs you get better survivability for your surface ships so it's only a matter of time before you can engage any subs. Lone escorts or small escort groups are probably not a good idea early in the game.

I think it's better for the Allied player to concentrate the escorts on ONE convoy and have a full screen around it (CV in center adjacent to the convoy) and DD, BB, DD, BB etc. perimeter around the CV and convoy. If you place strategic bombers along the path then you should get some retaliation chances.

If you make sure the edges of your box are DD's only then the subs will take considerable damage if they go after the edges. DD's are cheaper than subs now so you can build quite a few of them when needed.

If you concentrate your escorts then I'm pretty certain the Axis player will instead hunt down the unescorted convoys.

If you're greedy as the Allied player trying to escort all your convoys by spreading your escorts then you might lose the escorts instead. If you concentrate the escorts you probably lose some entire convoys, but you get some home too and keep the escorts pretty much intact.

Over time you get enough escorts to escort all convoys. If you put effort into ASW and radar tech you will notice the subs take a lot more hits than you if they go after your escorts.

So the Allied player decides how to use his escorts. There are no rules about you having to escort all convoys, thus having to spread them.

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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by GogTheMild » Thu May 30, 2013 1:51 am

You will notice that the last time Kragdob run into a sub with a DD he kept his subs together and that I didn't go after them.
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Morris » Thu May 30, 2013 5:28 am

It is really interesting to watch this AAR as a advertisement of 3.0 ! It will defenitely change the strategy of both side . If this work well , the game balance will be well recovered !

looking forward to the official release ! When ? we can't wait ! :D

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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Kragdob » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:43 am

jimwinsor wrote:"Jim, that can happen to a large extent in 2.1 ..."

Oh, I know! Subs have gone from uber naval units to uber uber naval units.

"Huh? Evading doesn't work when you are attacking with subs."

Right, but the only way to defend ships from subs in this game is to ring them with DD or have aircraft nearby, so when it's your turn you can exact a certain degree of retribution. And that retribution will now miss 50% of the time.

We've already seen one case in this AAR when the British opted NOT to hit back when he had the chance, probably due to the dodge rule. Making the protection in that case 100%.
I opted for 80% initial chance of evade :-) and that it gradually moves towards 50% for DDs and CVs. For BBs this should be 0 to 30% in later stages of the game. This is my opinion

I see evasion as one of the things that will force Allies to build the number of vessels they did in real war. In 2.2 I never built more then 10 and this was enough for even large sub force.

Anyway Allies has so many PPs in this game that I do not see evasion as a significant strategy changer. This may probably delay Overlord till 1943. This game is unusuall as Gog is going for Fortress Europe and I need to fight 1/2.2 GDP ratio a little bit longer. Still (I didn't calculated exactly) 40%-50% of convoys reach UK and major loses are two DDs that Gog's SUBs have sunk.

To be honest I think SUBs still being able to hunt DDs is a little bit unrealistic. I think UK should start with 2 DDs but they really should be indestructible in combat with SUBs. I am used to odds like 4:1, 3:1 at the beginning of the game now they seem to go towards 2:2, 3:2. With this odds it is really good strategy to hunt UK DDs then sinking convoys. Did something change?
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Cybvep » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:57 am

Did something change?
Combat calculations are the same AFAIK. Evasion only works when subs are the defenders, not the attackers.

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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by GogTheMild » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:12 pm

Kragdob wrote:To be honest I think SUBs still being able to hunt DDs is a little bit unrealistic. I think UK should start with 2 DDs but they really should be indestructible in combat with SUBs. I am used to odds like 4:1, 3:1 at the beginning of the game now they seem to go towards 2:2, 3:2. With this odds it is really good strategy to hunt UK DDs then sinking convoys. Did something change?
I think that the only change has been that DDs now get an extra +2 when defending against subs. I have been a little surprised myself at how vulnerable naval units have been. They have felt not much tougher than 2.1.

Frankly I am not sure that hunting DDs really makes sense, however satisfying it may be. The subs take losses, which take time and PPs to rebuild; and whilst attacking DDs they can't be hitting convoys. I am probably still using my old 2.1 strategy by default and need to adjust my thinking. Plus this game is a bit non-typical in that it is worth moderate losses to the German U-boat force to stop or slow down the flow of reinforcements to Casablanca and Basra. With a more traditional Axis overall strategy the cost:benefit probably wouldn't work.
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:40 pm

We have not altered the combat of DD vs sub. BB and CV got a +1 survivability vs subs. That's the only change.

If I remember correctly we made some slight tech changes, but I think most were for air units, particularly fighters. The changes were not about giving units more bonuses, but moving the bonuses around a little to make things more balanced regarding tech progress. E. g. the +2 air attack increase from dogfight will now come at tech 6 instead of 5. Tech 5 will only give +1 air attack. So the max is still 9, but you only get it with jet fighters at tech 6.

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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by GogTheMild » Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:53 pm

Various things have been happening which I suspect Kragdob has noticed:

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The Iraqis decide that they have had quite enough of writhing under the heel of their oppressor:

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Just as their new oppressors arrive:


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The last point makes this step a bit all-or-nothing for the Axis. 20 turns of guaranteed oil from Russia sacrificed; if I don't take the Iraqi oil fields then I am in big trouble. The Brits are having manpower issues however, so it may be doable, even against Kragdob.
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by Kragdob » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:52 am

Do you suggest that my INF should be strong enough to smash all German army you brought to Africa? I say, unfortunately it is not, as for everyone else. :-)

I am probably to lazy to hack the game and make my INFs super strong ;-)
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by GogTheMild » Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:43 pm

We are into July 1941 and it is an eventful turn:

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The campaign in French North Africa is successfully concluded. Full details will be released once we pass the embargo date.

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More countries rush to join the winning side :wink: :

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Plus the Axis capture Baghdad. No fancy photo for that :( .

And one of Kragdob’s DDs finally takes steps off a sub. He accidentally overran it. Perhaps he will post a screenshot of his maritime triumph? :D

I suspect that with Spain joining the Axis naval activities in the Atlantic will now become a lot busier.
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Re: Kragdob educates Gog on 2.2.

Post by GogTheMild » Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:18 pm

The Egyptian campaign.

December 1940 and we are pushing into Egypt against a curiously weak Allied resistance. I had planned on waiting for more troops, but Alexandria was just too tempting:

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Surprisingly there is no Allied air presence. All over in Morocco perhaps? Or a deception to suck me into doing something silly?

January 1941. That line along the Nile looks tough. More ground and air units have arrived and I start thinking about hooking round it from the south:

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February and Kragdob’s main units have run away:

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I can’t understand this. What is left is too weak to delay me significantly, but enough that I don’t see that Kragdob would simply sacrifice it. I strongly suspect a trap. Yet I can see no choice but to push ahead. End of turn:

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Late February and we are across the Canal in force with no resistance in sight:

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Early April and we are getting nicely strung out as we drive for the Iraqi border:

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Somewhere over the horizon the Commonwealth forces are digging themselves in. And the Iraqis are preparing their uprising. Somehow I don’t think that it is going to go well for them.
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